Uncontrolled airports. Which call to make in circuits if you’re only going to make one call?

[BrendAn]

26 minutes ago, jackc said:

But I will see them, when I am flying inverted 🤩

true. just do continual barrel rolls

[skippydiesel]

7 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I just checked timing for my calls. Average length is 8 seconds. Example: Traffic Kyneton. Foxbat 0000 joining downwind runway 36 Kyneton. Other calls are no longer. So, with (say) 5 aircraft, each calling inbound, downwind, base and final, you have 32 seconds per aircraft, 160 seconds for five aircraft, call it three minutes, of radio calls in the time it takes to get from 10 miles inbound to on the ground, typically ten minutes. About 30% of the time. Seems OK to me.

 

 

 

8 seconds is one hell of a long time/message. Your (incorrect) example is 2-3 seconds at most. Could be the cold in those southern areas😈

[pmccarthy]

Why incorrect? And the time is right as I said it. Don’t see how you could say it much quicker.

[Mike Gearon]

20 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

I just checked timing for my calls. Average length is 8 seconds. Example: Traffic Kyneton. Foxbat 0000 joining downwind runway 36 Kyneton. Other calls are no longer. So, with (say) 5 aircraft, each calling inbound, downwind, base and final, you have 32 seconds per aircraft, 160 seconds for five aircraft, call it three minutes, of radio calls in the time it takes to get from 10 miles inbound to on the ground, typically ten minutes. About 30% of the time. Seems OK to me.

 

 

 

 That’s a third of the time you can be stepped on or step on. Airmanship and situational awareness of all the other calls positions  is perhaps saying reduce your own calls with radio calls this heavy.

 

With inbound aircraft in mind downwind only makes sense in heavy traffic then bring in base or base and final depending on what’s happening in front of you. (IMO)

[Mike Gearon]

13 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

8 seconds is one hell of a long time/message. Your (incorrect) example is 2-3 seconds at most. Could be the cold in those southern areas😈

Are we opening the stop watch and timing these? I just did my usual inbound to Tyabb.

 

Tyabb traffic RV TUP one zero miles south east five hundred feet on climb two thousand five hundred inbound eta circuit 56 Tyabb. 
 

11 seconds.

 

That always sounds long winded to me and I try to rattle it off fairly quickly. I call the 500ft or so climb out because it’s going to be unexpected to have an aircraft taking off from the French island training area. I see the aircraft overhead with avplan or ADSB out and that helps. Probably about every 20th flight there will be another aircraft loitering around the south coast so the climb out call helps us both. 

[Mike Gearon]

21 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

When I'm inbound and feel that something's not right, in addition to 10miles call, I announce 5 miles, 3 miles calls. 

I’m going to add this to my lack of downwind radio call defense list. Already brought in an early downwind entry at appropriate speed and circuit height (subject to traffic). That’s  a huge help for both myself and the school aircraft compared to an oblique downwind entry.

 

Adding a 5 or 3 mile (subject to number of radio calls being made by other aircraft) if as you said something doesn’t seem right makes huge sense.

[skippydiesel]

9 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Why incorrect? And the time is right as I said it. Don’t see how you could say it much quicker.

The location comes before the "Traffic" as in "The Oaks Traffic" 

 

As for time taken, your delivery/speech rate may be just part of your personality, which is absolutely fair enough.

I would rather a slow delivery, that I can understand/take in, than an overly fast but I still think your estimate is about twice as long as needs be.

[pmccarthy]

I was taught that the location comes second. The reason is that people are often slow on the transmit button and you may lose part of the first word. Saying traffic first gives the listen a chance to pay attention and then hear the location. I think the CASA radio procedures booklet is wrong in that regard, though I can see why you would want to follow it. And there is no "traffic" at the end of the message, which I hear a lot.

[spacesailor]

Thank you to,

all.

   The  Slow  &   slightly  Longer  calls  .

A: brain into gear.

B: call button pressed.

😄 mouth into gear.

Never reversed .

spacesailor

Edited July 17 by spacesailor
Couldn't write C: it put smiley

[Blueadventures]

11 hours ago, pmccarthy said:

Why incorrect? And the time is right as I said it. Don’t see how you could say it much quicker.

Agree 8 -12 secs is my time. No way I could send an understandable message in 2-3 secs.

[spacesailor]

New pilots ( trainees/students  ) would miss plenty , from fast talking Oldies . 😄

( Just tried c, : ,  for that smiley )

spacesailor

[Mike Gearon]

Where to call for one call? I had a really good catch up with a pilot yesterday and another set of experiences of no downwind call leading to a close call. Makes me wonder just how many of us around Australia are experiencing this and the potential consequences.
 

USA is primarily all calls and it’s up to the pilots individual situational awareness/ airmanship to reduce calls. As with my discussion with a senior American (Master) instructor yesterday, it’s the downwind call that’s likely to stay in place if Americans are going to drop calls due to heavy radio traffic. 

 

[Blueadventures]

Any pilot who has a radio and does not call joining circuit needs an ear full and also a clip under the ear, full stop. It’s unsafe airmanship.

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, Blueadventures said:

Any pilot who has a radio and does not call joining circuit needs an ear full and also a clip under the ear, full stop. It’s unsafe airmanship.

I think there are radios out there that don't work properly too. Quite often hear someone call up and it's that broken and muffled we don't know what they said. 

[Garfly]

On 17/07/2024 at 10:38 AM, Blueadventures said:

Agree 8 -12 secs is my time. No way I could send an understandable message in 2-3 secs.

Yes, speed ain't everything as this clip is at pains to show:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nuKFhfEOosg

 

When I listen to local RPT pilots negotiate safe passage down among the unwashed and uncontrolled,  I'm often impressed by their professionalism; unrushed, patient radio work with each aircraft they deem a possible threat.  The comms alone can seem like a full time job, so lucky there are two of them up front.  Anyway, as Gryder advocates (in the vid posted in the other circuit issues thread) they carefully engage each significant other to obviate ambiguity.  If the RF is too chatty for that then the policy seems to be to hold away until it's clear.  I often hear them breaking off their preferred straight-ins to join the circuit if they are in any doubt.  In other words, it's not just a matter of declaring one's position/intentions and barrelling on in as if 'protected' by having 'followed the rules' ... or even just the recommendations.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18 by Garfly

[facthunter]

We can go to Mars but aircraft radios are still crap. Who arranges for a radio check before committing to fly away somewhere. .  Nev

[facthunter]

Most light aircraft with radios had a shielded Ignition harness..   Nev

[sfGnome]

21 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I think there are radios out there that don't work properly too. Quite often hear someone call up and it's that broken and muffled we don't know what they said. 

My home airfield some years ago had two Cessnas on regular rotation with the school there. You could identify which was which by their radios when they made calls. One went “Shhhzzzzzss” and the other went “Crkshckxk”. Never did understand a word they said. 🫤

[facthunter]

Can't recall any trouble with the radios in Cessna's etc in the late 50's to mid 60's. Often we only used the speaker in the cabin. In the Chipmunk is was an STR9X radio throat Mikes and  Bakelite headphones. Maybe there were more "radio types" around to fix the stuff. and more careful shielding. Nev

[BrendAn]

20 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Most light aircraft with radios had a shielded Ignition harness..   Nev

we spoke about my radio interference a couple of weeks back. i think it is ignition or alternator noise. red said it is common with jabiru engines.

when i listen to atis on the ground i do it at idle , the interference gets worse when the rpm goes up. atis comes from the raaf which is about 10 km away. in the air it seems to be a lot clearer. i guess thats line of sight.

[facthunter]

Do we take as much trouble with the aerial location and type as we should? Both generators with brushes and alternators with slip rings can make noise and also some types of voltage regulators as well. Nev

[spacesailor]

USB power supplies ,

are ridiculously bad for interference. 

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

On 17/07/2024 at 9:29 AM, pmccarthy said:

I was taught that the location comes second. The reason is that people are often slow on the transmit button and you may lose part of the first word. Saying traffic first gives the listen a chance to pay attention and then hear the location. I think the CASA radio procedures booklet is wrong in that regard, though I can see why you would want to follow it. And there is no "traffic" at the end of the message, which I hear a lot.

It would seem you have been taught incorrectly :

 

You are speaking to a location "Cowra" -  its a general call to all aircraft in this geographic location as in  "Traffic"

When entering Camden air space  its "Camden Tower" not Tower Camden

You end the transmission with the location ("Taree") , just in case you clipped/did not transmit the location at the start.

 

The format is"

 

Use the IMPAIR format to make clear calls. IMPAIR stands for:

• Ident: to whom am I speaking?
• Me: aircraft type and callsign
• Position: distance/bearing
• Altitude: in feet
• Intentions
• Request (if in CTA/CTR/ADIZ).

[Garfly]

Another sometimes useful "incorrect" usage is repeating the call-sign near the end - as well as the location.

It may take a couple more seconds but can save more time and confusion on follow up queries.

Rigid formats definitely have their place but so does context/common sense.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 18 by Garfly

[facthunter]

Common sense that's not very common. Idiots get a lot of practice and support from other idiots.  Nev