The risk of dying doing what we love

[facthunter]

With the steering wheel through your chest and a broken neck.  Nev

[kgwilson]

Modern cars don't rust easily. In the 70s cars rusted out quickly which is why there was an industry for rustproofing with stuff like fisholene. My Holden HQ Ute & my Datsun 180B from those days rusted really quickly. Cars I've owned in the last 30 years have not rusted at all. I had lots of stone chips on the bonnet of My 2012 Mitsubishi which I never touched up in the 11 years I owned it. Never rusted at all.

 

Also Bumpers are now made to give way and crumple zones of the engine bay are designed to direct the engine downwards to reduce the injuries both to those who you hit and the occupants. The passenger compartment is the strong part for good reason.

[facthunter]

If your father did 50MPH you let the whole school know. It was a big deal.. Modern cars are incredible with their handling braking, power and occupant safety and the distances they will run before needing engine attention. No one reconditions motors anymore unless they are collectables. Nealy all cars blew smoke from oil burning after about 45 thousand miles in those days. I worked in engine reconditioning for years.. They corrected many manufacturer's faults. Nev

[spacesailor]

No, ! .

never happened in my many years of driving. 

Never heard of any steering-wheels penetrating

anyone's chest in real life .

Like lots of things that get blown out of proportion. 

Out of " all " those car races ( thatcrashed )has one been reported

like you say ," steering wheel through chest .

spacesailor

 

[facthunter]

They didn't have any collapsible steering columns , seat belts and airbags in those days nor a crumple zone to absorb the energy  Some steering wheel s had very flimsy multi wire spokes or sheet aluminium with laminate wood rims.  All that's been addressed now in these modern $#1t boxes you want to hate. I was around car racing from the Mid 50's to early 70's. Steering wheels were responsible for many serious injuries. What else do you impact when you go forwards? Your chest and you get whip lash. as you didn't have headrests. Nev

[Thruster88]

Hard to argue with a crash test dummy. 

[skippydiesel]

There is no doubt in my mind that modern cars are much safer both in handling and in a crash than those to the past BUT as with almost all technology there is a down side. Driving skill/road manners/courtesy is at a very low standard.

The responsible Governments are still treating the symptom causing death/injury- speed (as in breaking the speed limit).

 

If you went to your doctor, with a medical issue  and were told that, having a go at curing you is just in the too hard basket but don't worry, we will give alleviating the symptoms  a bit of a whirle. Oh! &  you will be fined for not to take your symptom med - You would fire that quack  & probably report them to the board of practitioners to have them struck off

 

Why then do we allow our Governments to just treat the symptoms, that result in road injury/death & earnt a nice income at the same time.

[facthunter]

Plenty of testing done. Those older cars are a death trap and not even nice to drive.. If you realise this and are a devotee do it with others and share your skills and enthusiasm and drive appropriately.

[facthunter]

If the rule breakers pay fines it's less revenue for the careful drivers to have to pay. Plenty of occasions I see people breaking speed limits by a fair margin and wish there were more cameras around to make my situation SAFER.  Nev

Edited July 7 by facthunter
typo

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

If your father did 50MPH you let the whole school know. It was a big deal.. Modern cars are incredible with their handling braking, power and occupant safety and the distances they will run before needing engine attention. No one reconditions motors anymore unless they are collectables. Nealy all cars blew smoke from oil burning after about 45 thousand miles in those days. I worked in engine reconditioning for years.. They corrected many manufacturer's faults. Nev

50 mph. Are talking pre 1950

[kgwilson]

I was first at a head on collision back in the early 80s. Both drivers and a passenger in 1 vehicle were killed. 1 backseat passenger survived. The driver of the car that was on the correct side of the road died instantly from the steering column penetrating his skull. We had kids in our car & tried to stop them looking at the horrific scene. I've tried to forget it but have not been able to.

 

The modifications and safety processes that have been added to cars since then have made motoring way more safe. The thing is you still can't legislate stupid. When I hear of hoons having races on busy suburban roads and people caught speeding at 190kmh or more I realise there are people out there who just don't care what about happens to them or innocent parties.

[skippydiesel]

Speed limits are a joke - CONSISTENCY one of the pillars of a safe/predictable operating system, is non existante.

 

Speed limits are set by Councils,  State  bodies, Work crews, Emergency & Police .

 

They often have little relevance to the road environment/conditions. Appear quite arbitrary in nature.

 

Sure nil speed = nil accident but posted SPEED LIMITS that make no sense are almost as bad a no speed limit.

 

Typical examples:

• On one 270 km stretch of rural road in NSW, there are  corners where the advisory (yellw) speed limits are for the most part, way way too low, for the coming corner BUT there are a small number that are way too high for the corner - perhaps there to catch the unwary, who have become used to ignoring the signs.
• Local road, close to me, used to be 100 kph - almost strait/level & long enough to land a commuter jet on. No private entries, one left & two right side roads. Main drag, limit dropped to 80 kph ????? Even stranger the three side roads, two very windy/narrow with varying degrees of residential semi rural development density, stayed at  80 kph. You would be crazy to do 80 kph on the side roads but could safely hit 160 kph ++ on the main - go figure???
• 50 kph zones on town main entry road, many kilometres before any development/potential safety issues.
• 40 kph temporary work  - could be on a side road, may be no work being conducted for days-months (forgotten?), may be on one side & not the other (forgotten?) Can be installed for long distances where work may be performed at some time in future hours.
• 40 kph school zones that go for kilometers past the school in each direction, operate when no school activity (should be activated by the school 30 min each side of activity)

 

[spacesailor]

" School Zones " .

A School in Darcy road pendle hill. Nsw .

Has been demolished. 

But you will still cop that " school-zone fine " ,

As it's only " revenue raising " .

The offal School enrolment is 712 .

Without a building ! .

spacesailor

 

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

They didn't have any collapsible steering columns , seat belts and airbags in those days nor a crumple zone to absorb the energy  Some steering wheel s had very flimsy multi wire spokes or sheet aluminium with laminate wood rims.  All that's been addressed now in these modern $#1t boxes you want to hate. I was around car racing from the Mid 50's to early 70's. Steering wheels were responsible for many serious injuries. What else do you impact when you go forwards? Your chest and you get whip lash. as you didn't have headrests. Nev

how long  ago are you talking nev. australian cars have had collapsible steering columns and seat belts since the 60's.

[RFguy]

Referring to the original post with the illustration/graph

What happens if you do : GA, motorcycles, diving, MTBing and rock climbing ? Do the probabilities  all add up ?  Note I have not done any rock climbing for 20 years. 

Well I'm not going to die in my plane. Biggest danger is distraction by a passenger these days . 

 

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, RFguy said:

Referring to the original post with the illustration/graph

What happens if you do : GA, motorcycles, diving, MTBing and rock climbing ? Do the probabilities  all add up ?  Note I have not done any rock climbing for 20 years. 

Well I'm not going to die in my plane. Biggest danger is distraction by a passenger these days . 

 

If you work in an industry that's the sort of question that has to be asked so you can quantify what exactly will make a difference. In country towns where everyone knows everyone else's business, there is always someone who drives home drunk, leaves his gun loaded on the parcel shelf, uses his chainsaw to remodel his rafters, has three tractors without rops and rides his 4 wheeler around the paddocks full of stumps in the long grass, flies an old Auster which he beats up the neigbours with, and everyone just nods when he finally becomes a statistic.

 

About the best comparator for what you described is fatalities per x No of missions or x No of days they went out.

 

You can then break it up into when they went out x.

Where x = with alcohol in the blood, or drugs, or distractions, or agressive (all in the behaviour group) and so on.

 

As far as the super-slow school zones, shopping zones and now entry to town zones are concerned, a very detailed London traffic study (I think 30 mph) showed 1 person died falling on a car when it was stationary, the peak of deaths at 2/3 of the speed limit (so about 20) and no deaths over the speed limit.

 

 

[Red]

8 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 

As far as the super-slow school zones, shopping zones and now entry to town zones are concerned, a very detailed London traffic study (I think 30 mph) showed 1 person died falling on a car when it was stationary, the peak of deaths at 2/3 of the speed limit (so about 20) and no deaths over the speed limit.

 

 

As someone who once worked as a motorcycle Courier in the smoke (only did it for 3 months as 2 blokes in the outfit got killed on the job in that short time so I legged it)

I'd love to see that very detailed study

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, Red said:

As someone who once worked as a motorcycle Courier in the smoke (only did it for 3 months as 2 blokes in the outfit got killed on the job in that short time so I legged it)

I'd love to see that very detailed study

From memory I think it was a London Transport Study within the last 10 years. If you can't find it easily, let me know.

[skippydiesel]

Seat belts, crush zone, air bags, etc etc have absolutely nothing to do with safe driving - they are to improve occupant survivability in the event of a crash.

 

There is some evidence that suggests, that the installation of systems that make it safer to crash, actually work against safe driving.

[facthunter]

The logic in some of this is revealing. Going faster increases Kinetic energy  as V squared.  Side impacts are hard to airbag. I've been first at several BAD accidents. At one I  ended up by putting the drivers brain back in his head. One leg was wrapped around the tailshaft. IF the people who drive at crazy speeds viewed this sort of thing it might slow them down a little.. If you want to go fast do it on the track. Would you really forgive yourself if a kid ran out behind a school bus and you clobbered him/her.. You don't have to be going very fast to kill one and you should be alert to STOP. Nev

[spacesailor]

Or that same kid . Had climed onto the roof of a truck & fell through your cars ' sunroof ' , onto your lap .

Don't laugh . I'll post the answer next time . 

spacesailor

 

[skippydiesel]

It always amazes me how willing people are to be brainwashed.

 

Back in the days, when we were transitioning from horse drawn transport to car/rail, there were those who were convinced that traveling at a speed greater than that of a galloping horse was instant death. The clergy were particularly adamant on this point - presumably the dead person went straight to hell.

 

One would think that with widespread education and some minimal grounding in science, to say nothing of being aware of the advance of technology, it would have become apparent to all THAT SPEED DOES NOT KILL!!!!!!!  This is fact - beyond doubt.

 

CRASHING of the vehicle can causes injury, death and ongoing economic loss.

 

The focus on vehicle speed and safety devices does very little to address the basic problem - BAD DRIVING. I would go so far as to suggest this one eyed focus, to the exclusion of more effective/targeted solutions,  has likly lead to maintaining the rate of accident in Australia, than any other factor.

 

Look back - Authorities of all levels and persuasion, have for the most part been focused on legislated to reduce the potential for harm in the event of an incident. there has been at best, token attention to preventing the crash in the first instance. Sure there has been a bit about maintenance - thats what the joke of Roadworthy Inspections are about. Some thought has gone into such matters as lights (vehicle build standards) but actual driving skill/prevention of accidents ?????????.

 

When it comes to driver skill - what skil?? Our illustrious leaders have been pretty well absent on this matter. Driver testing (once in a lifetime for most) is another joke. Driving standards are appalling. I see so called professional drivers (police/taxi/emergency/bus/truck) behaving badly every time I go on a tip, what hope for the private driver?????

 

Our traffic accident rate remains stubbornly high - plateaued!

 

Our leaders answer -

• Lower & more varied speed limits,
• More draconian fines for evil doers ( thats people who break the posted speed limit, not necessarily speeding in the sense of driving dangerously, don't wear a safety belt/helmet)
• Safety barriers to keep the crashing vehicle on the road??? Safety barriers on both sides of a road (sometimes in the middle) are an extravagant waste (for the most part) of tax dollars. 
• In our area (NSW) there has been a sudden explosion in very large reflective chevrons on every corner - sometimes as many as 25 individual signs, presumably to guide the almost blinded (reflected light at night) every 10 m of curvature.
• Expensive & ineffective/illogical/pathetic advertising campaigns (our tax dollars) that promote the ineffectual messaging of the past

 

 

Edited July 8 by skippydiesel

[BrendAn]

9 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

It always amazes me how willing people are to be brainwashed.

 

Back in the days, when we were transitioning from horse drawn transport to car/rail, there were those who were convinced that traveling at a speed greater than that of a galloping horse was instant death. The clergy were particularly adamant on this point - presumably the dead person went straight to hell.

 

One would think that with widespread education and some minimal grounding in science, to say nothing of being aware of the advance of technology, it would have become apparent to all THAT SPEED DOES NOT KILL!!!!!!!  This is fact - beyond doubt.

 

CRASHING of the vehicle can causes injury, death and ongoing economic loss.

 

The focus on vehicle speed and safety devices does very little to address the basic problem - BAD DRIVING. I would go so far as to suggest this one eyed focus, to the exclusion of more effective/targeted solutions,  has likly lead to maintaining the rate of accident in Australia, than any other factor.

 

Look back - Authorities of all levels and persuasion, have for the most part been focused on legislated to reduce the potential for harm in the event of an incident. there has been at best, token attention to preventing the crash in the first instance. Sure there has been a bit about maintenance - thats what the joke of Roadworthy Inspections are about. Some thought has gone into such matters as lights (vehicle build standards) but actual driving skill/prevention of accidents ?????????.

 

When it comes to driver skill - what skil?? Our illustrious leaders have been pretty well absent on this matter. Driver testing (once in a lifetime for most) is another joke. Driving standards are appalling. I see so called professional drivers (police/taxi/emergency/bus/truck) behaving badly every time I go on a tip, what hope for the private driver?????

 

Our traffic accident rate remains stubbornly high - plateaued!

 

Our leaders answer -

• Lower & more varied speed limits,
• More draconian fines for evil doers ( thats people who break the posted speed limit, not necessarily speeding in the sense of driving dangerously, don't wear a safety belt/helmet)
• Safety barriers to keep the crashing vehicle on the road??? Safety barriers on both sides of a road (sometimes in the middle) are an extravagant waste (for the most part) of tax dollars. 
• Expensive & ineffective/illogical/pathetic advertising campaigns (our tax dollars) that promote the ineffectual messaging of the past

 

 

thats what they do here in the busted arse state of victoria.

Edited July 8 by BrendAn

[kgwilson]

I want to die peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather, not screaming in agony like the passengers in his car.

[danny_galaga]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

It always amazes me how willing people are to be brainwashed.

 

Back in the days, when we were transitioning from horse drawn transport to car/rail, there were those who were convinced that traveling at a speed greater than that of a galloping horse was instant death. The clergy were particularly adamant on this point - presumably the dead person went straight to hell.

 

One would think that with widespread education and some minimal grounding in science, to say nothing of being aware of the advance of technology, it would have become apparent to all THAT SPEED DOES NOT KILL!!!!!!!  This is fact - beyond doubt.

 

CRASHING of the vehicle can causes injury, death and ongoing economic loss.

 

The focus on vehicle speed and safety devices does very little to address the basic problem - BAD DRIVING. I would go so far as to suggest this one eyed focus, to the exclusion of more effective/targeted solutions,  has likly lead to maintaining the rate of accident in Australia, than any other factor.

 

Look back - Authorities of all levels and persuasion, have for the most part been focused on legislated to reduce the potential for harm in the event of an incident. there has been at best, token attention to preventing the crash in the first instance. Sure there has been a bit about maintenance - thats what the joke of Roadworthy Inspections are about. Some thought has gone into such matters as lights (vehicle build standards) but actual driving skill/prevention of accidents ?????????.

 

When it comes to driver skill - what skil?? Our illustrious leaders have been pretty well absent on this matter. Driver testing (once in a lifetime for most) is another joke. Driving standards are appalling. I see so called professional drivers (police/taxi/emergency/bus/truck) behaving badly every time I go on a tip, what hope for the private driver?????

 

Our traffic accident rate remains stubbornly high - plateaued!

 

Our leaders answer -

• Lower & more varied speed limits,
• More draconian fines for evil doers ( thats people who break the posted speed limit, not necessarily speeding in the sense of driving dangerously, don't wear a safety belt/helmet)
• Safety barriers to keep the crashing vehicle on the road??? Safety barriers on both sides of a road (sometimes in the middle) are an extravagant waste (for the most part) of tax dollars. 
• In our area (NSW) there has been a sudden explosion in very large reflective chevrons on every corner - sometimes as many as 25 individual signs, presumably to guide the almost blinded (reflected light at night) every 10 m of curvature.
• Expensive & ineffective/illogical/pathetic advertising campaigns (our tax dollars) that promote the ineffectual messaging of the past

 

 

Accidents happen. Indisputable. If your accidents happen at lower speeds, there are less injuries. That's also indisputable.