The risk of dying doing what we love

[skippydiesel]

47 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The EU has just introduced new laws that require all new cars to have speed limiters. How these are implemented will be interesting. Many new cars already have built in GPS and traffic sign recognition (mine has) and a backlash is expected. My car is already speed limited by software. It will not exceed 160 kmh, but that is hardly  a disincentive to speed. I always set the ACC to the speed limit & have never taken it to 160kmh anyway.

 

The rule will eventually filter down to Australia but given that we still do not even have any fuel standards (20 years behind the EU) I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a61532276/mandatory-speed-limiters-europe-cars/

Once again  a Government is attempting (I predict unsuccessfully) to further reduce the road accident rate, by addressing a symptom (speed) of bad driving (driving faster than the drivers capability/the road environments/cars capability) . If they are genuine in their wish (clearly not), to reduce the rate of road accidents, they need to address the root cause, anything else is window dressing.

[BurnieM]

57 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The EU has just introduced new laws that require all new cars to have speed limiters. How these are implemented will be interesting. Many new cars already have built in GPS and traffic sign recognition (mine has) and a backlash is expected. My car is already speed limited by software. It will not exceed 160 kmh, but that is hardly  a disincentive to speed. I always set the ACC to the speed limit & have never taken it to 160kmh anyway.

 

The rule will eventually filter down to Australia but given that we still do not even have any fuel standards (20 years behind the EU) I wouldn't hold my breath.

 

https://www.autoweek.com/news/a61532276/mandatory-speed-limiters-europe-cars/

Then the technology needs to be a s/load (technical term) better than it is now.

 

My partner had a 2021? CX-5 that could recognize speed limit signs. On the M2/M7 (100kph limit) it would frequently read the 60kph signs on the offramps and flash us a warning. If this warning system was coupled to the brakes it would cause havoc.

[turboplanner]

17 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Once again  a Government is attempting (I predict unsuccessfully) to further reduce the road accident rate, by addressing a symptom (speed) of bad driving (driving faster than the drivers capability/the road environments/cars capability) . If they are genuine in their wish (clearly not), to reduce the rate of road accidents, they need to address the root cause, anything else is window dressing.

The speed thing dates from the days of horses when galloping at night or when drunk produced casualties.

 

What you are getting at is behavioural which can be observed but is hard to set a line or or prove, so police pushed for things that could be proven such as a measured speed, and that morphed into automatic cameras which did the job of police and the plot was lost.

 

You're not given an upper speed limit in racing, but cars with significantly different performances have been separated into classes over the decades, so the competitors are travelling at roughly the same speed. The advantage in that is better control of reflex action, less nose to tail accidents etc. I can see automtatic governing dictated by control devices for each separate speed zone with a central control to change governed speeds when it rains, dark etc. None of that is likely to save lives as you say.

Edited July 9 by turboplanner

[facthunter]

Skip, you are like a stuck record.   You don't add much when you just keep repeating the one line . You have more energy to dissipate at high speed and it takes longer to stop and less ability to stay in lanes etc where you should be..   Nev

[Thruster88]

Yes energy is the square of speed, this is why turning into wind for a forced landing can make all the difference.  45knots stall + 15 wind = 60. 45knots stall - 15 wind = 30. 3x3=9. 6x6 = 36. 36/9 = 4. That is 4 times the energy available to deform your aircraft and body.

 

Just keeping it aircraft related. 

[danny_galaga]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

 

 

"There are other people on the road." True and the vast majority are bad drivers.

 

 

 

As with intelligence, an above average number of people think they have above average driving ability 😄

[facthunter]

Those who make the rules have to work with what they have and it's hard to predict driver attitude under various conditions. Tired, stressed, running late, Half mad etc. Same with a student pilot. He/She may know how to fly but be an addicted risk taker pushing the boundaries beyond the Planes and their ability but never do it when someone is checking them. Nev

[spacesailor]

Australia,  is one of a very few countries with ' no upper speed limit ' .

Admittedly one particular road .

How to automate that " maximum speed limiter " on that road .

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The speed thing dates from the days of horses when galloping at night or when drunk produced casualties.

 

What you are getting at is behavioural which can be observed but is hard to set a line or or prove, so police pushed for things that could be proven such as a measured speed, and that morphed into automatic cameras which did the job of police and the plot was lost.

 

You're not given an upper speed limit in racing, but cars with significantly different performances have been separated into classes over the decades, so the competitors are travelling at roughly the same speed. The advantage in that is better control of reflex action, less nose to tail accidents etc. I can see automtatic governing dictated by control devices for each separate speed zone with a central control to change governed speeds when it rains, dark etc. None of that is likely to save lives as you say.

Sure it's harder to support a subjective accusation of unsafe/bad driving, if it's just the opinion of the enforcer/police - much easier to have an objective measurement/speed camera. Unfortunatly this does not make it an effective reducer of accidents (below what we have now) so what would you suggest - accepting the expensive  and  ridiculous mishmash of token enforcement (status quo)???

 

Why aren't we doing something about the appallingly  low standard of initial training, absence of periodic driver standard reviews & the failure to enforce good driver behaviour.

The following are just some of the routine driver behaviours that could be addressed but are not, putting all road users at elevated risk. I see this every time I go anywhere (even see professional drivers doing these):

• The lemming like desire to drive to the right, to the point where I have often driven up to 50 kilometres in the left lane of a multi lane highway, at the 110 kph posted speed, passing the slower congested three/four lanes of traffic on my right. You will also see this brain dead activity on three lane hills, with idiots sitting in the right lane, from the bottom to top, not passing anything and preventing down hill traffic from passing..
• Congenital inability to keep left, (unless when passing) - crates massive congestion (see above).
• Failure to use indicators and when they do its incorrect - once explained to me as the Index Finger Method - Hand on wheel, index finger extended, turn wheel, finger engages indicator stalk, indicator comes on as vehicle well into manoeuvre (no pre manoeuvre warning to other road users). This national habit is often accompanied by what would seem to be an inability to use rear view mirrors.
• Inability to merge with traffic, extreme examples may be seen, again on motorways where some merging vehicles actually come to a stop - extremely dangerous. They should be smartly accelerating, to match highway speed, WITH RIGHT INDICTORS ON, smoothy merge into following traffic. Always helpful if established vehicles move to the right lane, to facilitate merge (again not often done)
• Do not understand how to use traffic circles - can be positively dangerous in their ignorance - see proceeding (traffic circles largely being a merging operation).
• Do not excelerate sufficiently to safely pass another vehicle.
• Do not pull over to allow accumulated line of traffic to pass - all to often a "Grey Nomad" loitering along at 20 -30 kph below the posted limit - lack of courtesy causing frustration in other drivers, which may result in an accident.
• Truck drivers causing mobile traffic jams by taking many many kilometers to pass.
• Crowding cyclists & other road users - I used to ride a horse into town, drivers would slow & give me a wide berth, not anymore - had to give that little pleasure up
• etc etc

We have come to accept the speeding brainwashing, as the only control measure - to our cost both in increased risk and in economic loss.

 

I haven't even started on the bad road design, that further increases the drivers risk.

 

[spacesailor]

skip 

You drive as I do.

The answer to those " Grey nomads " not giving way ,

Is probably quickly learned by , that line of greedy cars Not allowing the old fart back into the line traffic .

It happened to me once were I was forced into a shuddering stop as , all those overtaking refused to " make a hole , for the slow boat trailering vehicle to enter the traffic line .

The next duel carriage way I refused to use that left lane , with it's risk of being pushed into the barrier. 

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Sure it's harder to support a subjective accusation of unsafe/bad driving, if it's just the opinion of the enforcer/police - much easier to have an objective measurement/speed camera. Unfortunatly this does not make it an effective reducer of accidents (below what we have now) so what would you suggest - accepting the expensive  and  ridiculous mishmash of token enforcement (status quo)???

 

Why aren't we doing something about the appallingly  low standard of initial training, absence of periodic driver standard reviews & the failure to enforce good driver behaviour.

The following are just some of the routine driver behaviours that could be addressed but are not, putting all road users at elevated risk. I see this every time I go anywhere (even see professional drivers doing these):

• The lemming like desire to drive to the right, to the point where I have often driven up to 50 kilometres in the left lane of a multi lane highway, at the 110 kph posted speed, passing the slower congested three/four lanes of traffic on my right. You will also see this brain dead activity on three lane hills, with idiots sitting in the right lane, from the bottom to top, not passing anything and preventing down hill traffic from passing..
• Congenital inability to keep left, (unless when passing) - crates massive congestion (see above).
• Failure to use indicators and when they do its incorrect - once explained to me as the Index Finger Method - Hand on wheel, index finger extended, turn wheel, finger engages indicator stalk, indicator comes on as vehicle well into manoeuvre (no pre manoeuvre warning to other road users). This national habit is often accompanied by what would seem to be an inability to use rear view mirrors.
• Inability to merge with traffic, extreme examples may be seen, again on motorways where some merging vehicles actually come to a stop - extremely dangerous. They should be smartly accelerating, to match highway speed, WITH RIGHT INDICTORS ON, smoothy merge into following traffic. Always helpful if established vehicles move to the right lane, to facilitate merge (again not often done)
• Do not understand how to use traffic circles - can be positively dangerous in their ignorance - see proceeding (traffic circles largely being a merging operation).
• Do not excelerate sufficiently to safely pass another vehicle.
• Do not pull over to allow accumulated line of traffic to pass - all to often a "Grey Nomad" loitering along at 20 -30 kph below the posted limit - lack of courtesy causing frustration in other drivers, which may result in an accident.
• Truck drivers causing mobile traffic jams by taking many many kilometers to pass.
• Crowding cyclists & other road users - I used to ride a horse into town, drivers would slow & give me a wide berth, not anymore - had to give that little pleasure up
• etc etc

We have come to accept the speeding brainwashing, as the only control measure - to our cost both in increased risk and in economic loss.

 

I haven't even started on the bad road design, that further increases the drivers risk.

 

Almost all of that fits into the "Behaviour" category which indeed is a significant fatality sector on our streets, roads and highways.

 

It's almost a zero fatality cause in racing because it's observed in multiple places on a circuit/oval by stewards all the time the person is driving. There are penalties, such as suspensions fore 6 months, 12 months, 2 years etc and life. Natural justice is provided by appeals tribunals and that has worked for 40 years or so, but our State governments have progressively reduced observation by Police in favour of automated (cost positive) equipment for measurable behaviour like speed, seat belt and mobile device traps.

 

New drivers have to achieve around 120 hours under supervision and regardless of the popular beliefs that tey are taught the bad habits of the parents etc, they have the best knowledge of road rules in the user groups and the best habits and, like flying fewer fatalities. The next group, under 20s is the reverse, learning about hooning, drug taking and alcohil etc.

 

"drive to right"

Initially freeways and multi-lane roads allowed passing on both sides. 

This allowed freedom of choice for both slow and fast vehicles where slots opened up.

Trips times reduced and accidents reduced substantially. There was an official figure for reduction of fatalities on freeways.

Even though we, as humans could successfully pass safely on the left or the right, righteousness from the "safety industry" set in and in some states on some roads new rules were introduced prohibiting driving in empty right lanes where there was a (crowded) left one available. The nett effect is no real news on fatalities, so probably no reduction on the already small number, but a drop in travelling efficiency. This has been compounded by, in some States on some multi-lane roads and freeways, a total ban on trucks in the right lane because they slow the traffic (In reality virtually every semi and multi-combination is road-speed-governed to 103 km/hr and the freeway is flat.)

 

This has reached its peak on the high volume Geelong Freeway from Melbourne with the right lane usually free and trucks weaving in and out of the two left lanes around the slow drivers.

I've had to drive it a lot lately, and the average trip speed has dropped from 100 km/hr (or 103 if you're low on points) to a consistent 93 km/hr average, so productivity between the two cities has dropped for no real return in lives saved.

 

"Truck drivers many km to pass"

Heavy trucks and semi trailers are road speed governed by law to 100 km/hr.

The road speed governor operates from the drive train, so the driver can rev the engine all he likes and it's not going any faster. In reality most of our inventive drivers increase the tolerance to a true 103.

If you're driving at 100, you're going to see this many times on a long interstate trip.

A good tip is, if a truck appears in the distance in your mirrors and five minutes later is closer, and five minutes after that is closer again he's going faster than you are, but he's locked by the road speed governor from accelerating around him.

If you slow down to say 80 as soon as a long straight becomes available, he can judge the opportunity and pass in a very short time. 

The effect on your long distance trip time will be about zero. Have an experiment next time you're on a long trip; drop the speed 5 km/hr all the way to the next stop about 4 hours away and check the trip time; usually only about 4 minutes difference. It's stopping completely that wrecks the trip times.

Behaviour is a huge subject, which if addressed could reduce the road toll significantly. At present is is largely just "observed".

 

I agree with you road design is a very important segment and is responsible for a significant slice of the relatively small road toll. Most road improvements come after a fatality, but there's an increasing trend of academic "retaliation" against bad drivers by governments. For example in one case a driver was pulled over and fined for speeding on a country road by a cop. This enraged him so much that when he continued he didn't realise the road was joining a major highway or that there was a stationary car facing the stop sign in front of him. He slammed into the car knocking it out onto the highway where it was hit by a truck and its occupants killed. Government response? The highway now has an 80 km/hr limit in that area; the T intersection still exists for another day.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[danny_galaga]

12 hours ago, spacesailor said:

Australia,  is one of a very few countries with ' no upper speed limit ' .

Admittedly one particular road .

How to automate that " maximum speed limiter " on that road .

spacesailor

If you're referring to the Stuart Highway, that became limited 130 km/h a while ago.

[BrendAn]

As interesting as this subject is it has nothing to do with flying any more. 

 

 

Edited July 9 by BrendAn

[skippydiesel]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

As interesting as this subject is it has nothing to do with flying any more. 

 

 

Sad but true;

In the last week or so, not a lot of  aircraft debate on the Forum.

 

Any general interest  discussion is good,  almost all of us drive & have an opinion on other drivers/road design/etc.

 

We could change the topic and have a go at religion, sex, politics, if you prefere???😈

[danny_galaga]

15 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

 

As with intelligence, an above average number of people think they have above average driving ability 😄

It's funny you liked that because I was placing you in that group 😄

[skippydiesel]

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Almost all of that fits into the "Behaviour" category which indeed is a significant fatality sector on our streets, roads and highways.

 

It's almost a zero fatality cause in racing because it's observed in multiple places on a circuit/oval by stewards all the time the person is driving.

Good points - it's not all about penalties, there is also a shared ethos ie all understand that bad driving will slow the race, cause accident ($$$$$) and may incur loss of privileges(earnings$$$$)

r..............measurable behaviour like speed, seat belt and mobile device traps. I agree and would add non address bad driving only mitigate the outcome - crash survivability

 

New drivers they have the best knowledge of road rules in the user groups and the best habits and, like flying fewer fatalities. Logical ,even reasonable but I dispute this (no data) as I frequently see P plate drivers not using manoeuvring signals correctly, unable to merge, use a roundabout as designed, dont reverse park, cut in without signal, etc etc

 

The next group, under 20s is the reverse, learning about hooning, drug taking and alcohil etc. Fair comment

 

"drive to right"

Initially freeways and multi-lane roads allowed passing on both sides. 

This allowed freedom of choice for both slow and fast vehicles where slots opened up.

Trips times reduced and accidents reduced substantially. There was an official figure for reduction of fatalities on freeways.

Even though we, as humans could successfully pass safely on the left or the right, righteousness from the "safety industry" set in and in some states on some roads new rules were introduced prohibiting driving in empty right lanes where there was a (crowded) left one available. The nett effect is no real news on fatalities, so probably no reduction on the already small number, but a drop in travelling efficiency. This has been compounded by, in some States on some multi-lane roads and freeways, a total ban on trucks in the right lane because they slow the traffic (In reality virtually every semi and multi-combination is road-speed-governed to 103 km/hr and the freeway is flat.)

 

I absolutely disagree - I started driving on an Australian license (late 1970's) before relocating to the UK for 8 years where I received my semi (articulated vehicle) license. The UK traffic was and probably still , is exponentially more populated/dense than Australia,  had strict No Passing On The Left (exception being a town/city one way street) and trucks not allowed to use right lane, on 3 lane plus motorways (freeways). UK free ways were posted 80 mph (130 kph) and this almost seemed to be interpreted as the minimum speed. The system worked perfectly - drivers actually knew how to EFFICIENTLY pass and return to the inner lane. Trucks passing did not cause mobile traffic jams. For the most part driver singling of intent was excellent as was road courtesy (eg slowing/ changing lanes to allow another vehicle entry).

Allowing passing on both sides encourages lane hogging (slowing traffic) requires the driver to monitor both sides of the vehicle for passing /faster traffic making situational awareness more complicated than needs be (less safe).

 

"Truck drivers many km to pass"

If you slow down to say 80 as soon as a long straight becomes available, he can judge the opportunity and pass in a very short time. 

I like this idea.  I think it may not often apply to cars but Grey Nomad Vehicles should take note

 

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

I agree with you road design is a very important segment and is responsible for a significant slice of the relatively small road toll. 

I would like to debate this but feel we have strayed too far from aviation, so perhaps a "rain check"?

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BrendAn]

51 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Sad but true;

In the last week or so, not a lot of  aircraft debate on the Forum.

 

Any general interest  discussion is good,  almost all of us drive & have an opinion on other drivers/road design/etc.

 

We could change the topic and have a go at religion, sex, politics, if you prefere???😈

it doesn't matter what i prefer. the thread will get shut down soon like it always does when we drift too far.

[BrendAn]

38 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

It's funny you liked that because I was placing you in that group 😄

when you think you are a good driver just take the wife for a drive. then you can find out all the things you are doin wrong.😃

[skippydiesel]

45 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

it doesn't matter what i prefer. the thread will get shut down soon like it always does when we drift too far.

That it has gone so long & far afield, is probably due to the adjudicators recognising a "slow" Forum (hopefully temporary)😈

[pmccarthy]

Its the weather, unsuitable for flying so we deviate.

[skippydiesel]

25 minutes ago, pmccarthy said:

Its the weather, unsuitable for flying so we deviate.

Hmmme! "deviate" - that could also be a whole new topic😈

[Thruster88]

I like watching dash cam vids, it is a way to see what is really causing crashes in much the same way as reading aircraft accident reports. What is interesting is many dash cam owners are really shit drivers. After a collision that would have been easily avoided they speak about them selves in such derogatory terms, all very strange. 

[spacesailor]

As long as they get their 5 seconds of fame .

spacesailor

 

 

[skippydiesel]

Hard Quiz last night. Subject Roundabouts. Question (in short) Which of four vehicle do you give way too? Only one of the 5 contestants answered correctly.

 

A telling statistic!

[turboplanner]

26 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Hard Quiz last night. Subject Roundabouts. Question (in short) Which of four vehicle do you give way too? Only one of the 5 contestants answered correctly.

 

A telling statistic!

OK Skippy, you're driving along the road and see an unbroken yellow line along the left e3dge of the road; what does that mean?