Ethanol

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Ross.

 

Been a bit busy lately. No time for anything. A crude test for ethanol, is grab a glass jar. pour in some (25%) water. make a mark as to the level. fill up with the suspect fuel. Cap it, mix throughly. Let it settle. If the level rises, youv'e got ethanol. If you used a graduated cylinder, you could even work out the percent.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[facthunter]

General comments on alcohol fuels.

 

Alcohol (ethanol & methanol) as distinct from other hydrocarbon fuels contains some oxygen, and may be considered to be part burnt already, and always requires a richer mixture. You will always use more of it.

 

It has a very high octane rating and very high compression ratios can be used with it in pure form. If some of it evaporates what is left is still the same substance. It is uniform. It absorbs water. It does not mix with mineral oil or hydrocarbon fuels without the assistance of an agent such as a solvent. Its effect on rubber is less damaging than most other solvents but its effect on all materials would have to be determined in the entire fuel system.

 

Most of its corrosive effects on metals are probably due to its water absorbing properties, it is hygroscopic, and will absorb water any time it is vented to atmosphere. Having said this it has been used in Brazil for many years so I dont know why we should re-invent the wheel.

 

NEV.

 

 

[Wilfred]

iN general ethanol based fuels cause oxidation of many metal parts in a modern engine especially in injectors fuel pumps and carbys.

 

It also causes severe and accelerated deterioration many plastic , rubber and Poly type materials used in modern engines so if you wish to save expensive repair billsI understand from first hand experience dipping into my pocket that it is safer to avoid ethanol added fuels.

 

Most vehicle, motor cycle and outboard manufacturers specifically recommennd no ethanol based fuels in their engines.

 

Brazil is a different issue alltogether with the vehicles being locally manufactured in a heavilly subidised industry to support ethnaol fuels.

 

With the 1973 oil crisis the Brazilian government, then ran by a military junta, initiated in 1975 the Pró-ÃÂlcool program.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

The Pró-ÃÂlcool or Programa Nacional do ÃÂlcool (National Alcohol Program) was wide-scale nation program financed by the government to phase out all automobile fuels derivated from fossil fuels (such as gasoline) in favour of ethanol. The program succesfuly reduced by 10 million the amount of cars running on gasoline in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Brazil</st1:place></st1:country-region>, therefore reducing the country's dependency of oil imports.

 

The decision to produce ethanol from fermented sugarcane was based on the low costs of sugar at the time. Other sources of fermentable carbohydrates were tested such as the manioc.

 

Brazil remains much the lowest cost producer of sugar, at a third of world sugar prices, and produces at 75% of the cost of other major producers like <st1:country-region w:st="on">Australia</st1:country-region> and <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Thailand</st1:place></st1:country-region>. With feedstock accounting for 70% of the cost of Brazilian bioethanol, no other country could produce ethanol from cane at much below US$2 per gallon of hydrocarbon equivalent with current technology

 

I dont think it is any reinvention of the wheel,but a purely political based policy to introduce ethanol into our fuel. Reinventing the wheel is going to ethanol based fuels.

 

ther will undoubtedly be a push to cleaner , lighter , more efficient hybrids in the future withot any need to go to ethanol

 

once again This is mytwo cents worth based on the repair costs i have experienced from using ethanol based fuels in modern engines. I will now never use an ethanol fuel. Its just not worth it.

 

 

[facthunter]

I am not in any way suggesting that alcohol blends are a good idea for our use .The reference to brazil is only in the context that all thetechnical data would be out there without we folk having to start from scratch. The subject seems to be a problem in the USA as well with legislators rushing in and not showing any concern for the legitimate interests of aviators, who as a minority group probably dont rate. Ill keep off the politics, the input was meant to be technical. It would be a very brave man who would suggest that there would be no adverse effects of using blends of ethanol in any concentration in systems not specifically designed for it.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

I've just been looking throughRotax SI-912 (released Aug 28 2006). In containsa table entitled "CAUTION: The ill effects of alcohol in your engine are as follows" & it also specifically states that fuel with more than 5% alcohol added must not be used.

 

Mobil's website states that they don't add ethanol to any of their fuels so I'm using that from now on. Not optimistic in the long run though especially in QLD.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi

 

I suppose if, or more correctly, when ethanol became mandatory, would have to use 100LL, but buying it to store at home may create some additional problems ie suspected diversion to motorcar. an offence, although a blind eye is turned to such things at the moment.

 

Hopefully, the powers that be, leave one type of fuel available that remains clear of ethanol, unlike the earlier lead free petrol fiasco. (cars, that is)

 

Obviously some solution will need to be found, and soon.

 

Micgrace micgrace

 

 

[facthunter]

A permit to legally use avgas in a vehicle used on the road can be obtained from dept of customs& excise You should have a need for it ie earlier special performance vehicle etc.Lead will kill your catalytic converter in later vehicles. The big problem as far as the suppliers (oil companies) is the liability regarding the possibility of contaminationwhere drums are involved so this will never be encouraged . We have to live with this everyday with premix 2strokes etc. so extra care , a proper process & discipline are needed. Fly safely... N...

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

http://www.ultraflightradio.com/impodcast/2006/10/03/ufr061003d.mp3

 

this link is for a podcast discussing the affects on fibreglass fuel tanks from Ethanol. download and listen at your leisure

 

 

[Guest Kitfox 4004]

Very interesting reading all this stuff on Ethanol. I'm not going to try and be an expert here but I'm sure I can contribute. However I don't expect you to accept what I say but rather check the facts for yourself and above all don't use Ethanol especially in your plane until you have checked. That's really common sense not an instruction from me. I have no right to instuct anyway.

 

I have previously done quite a bit of racing with mainly 2 stroke motors althoughI did race a 5 litre Chevy V8 in a Hydroplane at one stage. Also I own a Kitfox witha Rotax 582. From racing I have learnt something about fuels. As a kitfox owner I subscribe to the Matronics Kitfox list and there has been a lot of discussion on list about ethanol. All of that is available to anyone of you for free in the archives. Just google the matronics lists and subscribe for free. There is over 100 lists to choose as many as you like. Kitfox, Rans, Jabiru,engines, electrical etc etc.You can then search the archives for Ethanol or anything else you want.

 

OK Ethanol is what we call grain based alchohol. Methanolthat is more commonly used as a racing fuel is a wood based alchohol. Both have similar properties like absorbing moisture [ water ] They need to run jets about 3 times the size as for petrol. Hence the restriction to about 10% without modifications. Their calorific value is much lower than petrol but for racing Methanol is used because it can be run at a lot higher compression ratios and for that reason more power output is obtained albeit at very much greater consumption.

 

In a two stroke motor the moisture absorbtion causes pin prick rust spots on the needle bearings and prompt failure.

 

Ethanol based fuel in fibreglass tanks slowly delaminates them. Yes there is a number of sloshing compounds but it is hard if possible at all to find one that solves the problem for ethanol. Also various fuel lines give up as do other components.

 

To check for it's presence get a glass jar mark up 1/4 way from the bottom and fill to that level with water. Fill to roughly the top above that with fuel. Put the lid on and shake. Let it stand for 1/2 hour minimum. It will settle and you will see the water at the bottom. If this has risen above the1/4 mark you have ethanol in the fuel.

 

I totally agree it would be nice to use ethanol from a greenie point of view and to stick it up the greedy oil companies but we have a lot of problems to solve first.

 

I'm not putting it in my plane thanks very much.

 

Rex Shaw Kitfox 4004

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

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A little while ago when this topic was hot. i decided to try and find some people who have been flying with ethanol in there fuel. So i fired a few emails at Brazilian operators and i just recieved this tonite. as you can see they run much higher amounts of ethanol than the 10% proposed for us.

 

Hello Steve,

 

I apologize for the long while for answering. Here in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Brazil</st1:place></st1:country-region> we have been flying trikes using autogas over last 20 years, NO problems either for Rotax 2 strokes or Rotax 4 strokes. Our gasoline has as rule 25% of anhydrous ethanol mixed (actually we have official testes of GA aircrafts flying 100% ethanol). Some more pragmatic pilots have opted for 100LL due Rotax recommendation or due at airfield availability. My opinion? Lead from the 100LL spoils the engine internally, the alcohol not. I have flown Rotax 503 and 582 only with autogas over hundreds of hours, currently I am flying a 912 with almost 200 and never had any problem due that. We do not make any change to the engine they are standard.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

I hope it was useful. Feel free to let me know of any doubt you have.

 

Regards.

 

Fabio R. Bolorino

 

SKYPE: protrike

 

[email protected]

 

www.protrike.com.br

 

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[hiperlight]

(1) 'Our gasoline has as rule 25% of anhydrous ethanol mixed'

 

(2) 'We do not make any change to the engine they are standard.'

 

(1) Except in very low humidity the ethanol would not be anhydrous for very long.

 

(2) Unless the carburettors or injection systems are modified the engines would run dangerously lean.

 

Bruce<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><?:NAMESPACE PREFIX = O /><O:P></O:P>

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi all...especially those using Mogas and whose aircraft have fibreglass fuel tanks...two out of two for me.

 

I read with interest that 2% ethanol is to be mandated into all fuel sold in NSW later on this year....ref. the latest RAAus mag. tech officer's report.

 

Are there any flyers out there who are concerned (like me) ?

 

I rang the RAAus office and Bert Flood and got feedback feedback along the lines that it is inevitable. The oil companies argue that we should'nt be flying with mogas, and in fact banned its sale to rec.flyers at a Mobil site near a strip in the ACT.

 

Rotax approve up to 5% in their engines however the potential fibreglass delamination reported in earlier postings on this site are a bit of a worry...

 

Anyone know of lightweight metal fuel tank makers ?

 

In the meantime I guess this MANDATE (another issue in itself) may hone up my outlanding awarness.

 

Cheers

 

JL

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi all

 

I'm not amused with the addition of ethanol to fuel.

 

If you really HAD to it would be possible to remove the ethanol from fuel. Easy, just add water. Drain the lower water layer (containing the ethanol, hence the main problem with using it, it will separate from the fuel and cause all sorts of nasties. Then mix the fuel with some dehydrated gypsum (cooked plasterboard) (removes trace water) and filter the mess. Pure fuel is the result. Common chem practice.

 

However, it would drop the octane rating somewhat, so one couldn't really win.

 

Seriously, I would be doing fuel drains on a VERY regular basis including the carby as well. Maybe addition of a gascolator would be of some benefit as well.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Ross]

Hi JL

 

There are at least two slushing (sloshing?) agents for fibreglass fuel tanks.

 

The one used by Jabiru at least on my kit as mentioned on their web site is not compatible with fuel containing ethanol.

 

I previously found a reference to these agents when we had the old web site or the AUF site by doing a Google search. I have not managed to find it tonight.

 

Regards

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Ross and Micgrace,

 

Thanks to you both for your feedback.....it would be interesting to know how many aircraft are likely to be affected.

 

Michael, I will chase up (learn about) the gascolator, although there is still the fibreglass issue....the ethanol removal suggestion offered is not for me although is interesting reading.

 

Ross if you find any info I'm sure many would welcome some feedback.

 

I will phone Jabiru for their thoughts and post.

 

Cheers JL

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Ethanol in Jabiru tanks

 

In regards to what Ross said about Jabiru sloshing compounds not being ethanol compatable...

 

After having a fuel tank on my Hanuman begin dissolving due to fuel issues, I rang Jabiru late last year about what they use on their aircraft. They told me it was 3M brand EC-776 Fuel resistant coating.

 

When I bought it, I DL the tech data sheet from 3M, which clearly says it is NOT compatable with ethanol or alcohol blended fuels.

 

This is in addition to any other engine components that aren't ethanol compatable.

 

So, bummer if MOGAS starts running ethanol in it.

 

Scotty

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Slosh resistant coating link

 

Here's the link to EC-776 tech page

 

http://www.3m.com/intl/kr/img/adh/adhesives/scotch-grip/EC776.pdf

 

Scotty

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Rocko,

 

Fuel tank dissolving?!?! Wow

 

Is'nt the Hanuman a relatively new aircraft ? Did the tank start to have pinprick leaks or was the dissolving more dramatic....also Scotty,what was the tank made of and what fuel were you using ?

 

Another issue....what type of engine do you have and how much muck went through before you observed the problem ?...and finally, what type of tank do you have now ?

 

Lots of questions so your feedback would be really welcome.

 

I phoned Jabiru and got the same answer as Ross and yourself posted with one additional peice of info.....apparently there is another slushing (sloshing) agent available in the US used for motor bike tanks which is OK for ethanol use....apparently the supplier won't sell it for aircraft use...if they know.

 

Dissolving tanks....Crikey!

 

cheers

 

JL

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Fibreglass tank, BP ultimate, and Jab 2200A engine.

 

It's a long story, the short of which we gather the fibreglass making up the tank wasn't mixed or proportioned properly during manufacture, and the resin component began dissolving, leaving the glass fibre behind. It never got to the point of actually perforating the tank, but could quite easily have done so, if left long enough.

 

We began getting significant quantities of translucent gel in the fuel filter, as well as the fuel drains, which could have easily blocked it during flight.

 

Manufacturer blamed the fuel. It was BP Ultimate, so I sent a sample for testing, and BP tech discovered fibreglass resin dissolved in the fuel mix. Otherwise, the fuel was in a perfect state. Absolutely no ethanol.

 

Several other aircraft were affected, and reported similar problems to me, including one of a serial number adjacent to mine.

 

Even now, I never got a satisfactory answer from the Xair factory. They still blame the fuel. Hard to ignore a full written technical report and fuel analysis tho, but they managed it.

 

Regardless, I put through the sloshing compound after asking Jabiru for some info (a nasty thing to use, although very effective, but thats another story), and have had no probs since.

 

Reported the dissolving tank to the appropriate authorities, and heard nothing since.

 

Had considered alloy tank, but since the problem is now solved, I never went ahead with it. I keep a very close eye on my fuel drains, as well as my tank, tho. Still use Ultimate, and it's now perfect, with no ethanol in it, apparently.

 

Scotty.

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Something else I came across

 

Out of curiosity, I was trying to find info on the other ethanol-compatable fuel resistant coating mentioned earlier. While i haven't found it yet, I did come across this, from 2004, on an avid flyer forum (http://www.avidflyeraircraft.com/)...

 

01/28/04

 

Below is an e-mail sent to me by Larry (Lmar_at_direcway.com). The availability of pure unleaded autogas without any blend of ethanol in it is increasingly difficult to find. My MK1V,(serial 1328, about '90) warns against the use of fuels containing ethanol due to the fuel destroying the epoxy in the tanks. I tested some fiberglass from a small piece that I cut off a nav light housing that the builder did not use. Sure enough, after a weekend in an ethanol blend, the fiberglass was getting soft. For the time being, I can get "real" gas from the farm supplier, but I don't know for how long. I thought it might behoove me to explore possibilities to prevent the destruction of the tanks. I wrote to 3M about the product. ( below, along with their response.) Does anyone have experience with this, or can come up with another solution to the problem with minimum rebuilding and down time?

 

Subject = Fuel Resistant Coatings EC-776EC-776SR

 

Message = Ref: Fuel Resistant Coatings EC-776 EC-776SR

 

Would these coatings be suitable to use in a fiberglass fuel tank to seal and protect the fiberglass expoy from being destroyed by ethanol in todays gasoline? Could you suggest a product that may be suitable.

 

Thank you,

 

Larry

 

here is the response from 3M

 

Thanks for contacting 3M. You got it! EC-776 would be an excellent choice for your application. Feel confident in using it.

 

If you have further questions or need more information, I can be reached directly at 1-800-285-3215, ext. 44.

 

Regards,

 

Maria Berglund

 

3M Industrial Markets

 

Technical Support Center

 

1-800-362-3550

 

01/29/04

 

Apparently Maria Berglund at 3M is very blond - please see the correction Larry forced out of her:

 

Larry wrote:

 

Maria,

 

Thanks for your response. Could you please verify that this product would be suitable in tanks containing ethanol gasoline? I thought a supplier had indicated against it. Perhaps he is not up to date with your product.

 

Thanks again,

 

Larry

 

...and her reply..

 

Thanks for contacting 3M. If you are putting it on the outside of the tank, the 776 will be resistant to oil, gasoline, aromatic fuels, and hydrocarbon fluid, and salt water. It is not recommended for use with alcohol containing fuels, or jet fuel containing microbial organisms. I believe ethanol would be considered "alcohol containing fuel" so I would suppose you will need to consider this when using the 776. Hope that helps.

 

If you have further questions or need more information, I can be reached directly at 1-800-285-3215, ext. 44.

 

Regards,

 

Maria Berglund

 

3M Industrial Markets

 

Technical Support Center

 

1-800-362-3550

 

Grinz....I guess that backdown means you should be very confident in NOT using it with ethanol fuels ;)

 

At least I now know what to line the OUTSIDE of my tank with, if I want to use ethanol fuel blends. Lucky really, cause I had thought of using thermite! ;)

 

Unbelievable...

 

 

Scotty

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Roko,

 

Thanks for a frank and very helpful reply.

 

Guess we will hear more about the issue as ethanol is introduced.

 

thanks again

 

JL

 

 

[eightyknots]

Hi Roko,Thanks for a frank and very helpful reply.

Guess we will hear more about the issue as ethanol is introduced.

 

thanks again

 

JL

It looks like ethanol will be compulsorily added to petrol in New South Wales from 2011. What will mogas powered ultralight owners do about this?

 

From today's Sydney Morning Herald:

 

There will be one less fuel to choose from next year, when NSW retailers are forced to phase out normal unleaded in favour of E10, even though some owners of older cars and European models will not be able to use the new fuel.

 

The chief executive of the Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries, Andrew McKellar, said a proliferation of fuels on the market would make buying petrol more complicated.

 

He said there was a concern that people would fill up with the wrong fuel, and ''we need to … try to ensure risk is minimised''. He said the introduction of mandatory ethanol content in NSW has the potential to disadvantage some motorists. ''There are some legitimate concerns there for those people out there who do have those older cars."

 

To me, it seems as if there will be some legitimate concerns for NSW recreational aircraft owners. i_dunno

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I think you will find that unleaded will contain ethanol and the 95 and 98 fuels will not. Shell is already supplying unleaded yellow handle pumps with ethanol 10% and the blue (95) and red (98) are straight fuel. the unleaded pumps have a sign saying not for garden machinery. Do they intend to taint 95 and 98. don't think so not for a few years at least. As it is i belive those using mogas use the 98. should be pretty straight forward for those using mogas. unless your color blind

 

 

[Guest disperse]

Have to agree with smokey and others, The main problem with ethanol is it's not compatible with components of the fuel system. And from memory one of them is fiber glass. Not to mention fuel lines, fuel pump diaphrams and valves, etc, etc, etc. As for cars I believe that from approx 2008, they do need to be compatible. As for using more energy to produce, I have no idea.

 

Personally without having a list of all the incompatable materials. And then going through the whole fuel system checking for them. I wouldn't use it

 

 

[robinsm]

I dont think the actual fibreglass mat or fabric is the problem, the resin used to manufacture the tanks etc is the problem. I have recently made additions to my fibreglass tanks and have been careful to research the problem. The problem appears to be in the polyester resin some companies use. The underground fuel tanks and the new tanks are made using vinylester resin which I believe is very chemical resistant. (so say the experts). I have been told that id your tank has been laid up using vinyl ester resin then it should be ok to use for ethanol based fuels.

 

Just my 0.2 c

 

Maynard