Transponder ADSB

[BurnieM]

Whether it is achievable and at what cost is going to depend on the combination of components you have.

 

What model Dynon efis and what model gps do you have connected to it ?

 

Edited August 24 by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

This is all the information I have;

 

EFIS: Dynon SkyView SE SV/D600 SV-ADAHRS-200 (Primary) 

 

Transponder: Trig TT22 Mode S  Control head - TC20

[BurnieM]

What model GPS do you have ?

 

[skippydiesel]

The Skyview has a GPS compass/ground speed read out - I don't know if there is a separate module for this capability - assume its integrated with main system.

[BurnieM]

Seems like Dynon Skyview SE SV-D600 is a 7 inch efis that does not have a mapping display.

 

Can you use the attached GPS as a ADS-B position source ? Need model.

Do you need to purchase a new GPS ?

A Dynon SV-GPS-2020 is $1600.

 

Sounds like this efis can control the transponder.

 

Is it worthwhile to wire the transponder thru the efis or should it be wired separately with its own gps source ?

What model gps do you need to use with the transponder ?

 

You probably need to talk to a Trig dealer.

 

 

[fallowdeer]

Pretty sure the TT22 doesn’t have a serial output which you would need to integrate to the Skyview .

 

( TT 21 doesn’t and they are identical AFAIK except for output power) 

 

As has been noted before you can’t just hook up any GPS even though it might be format compatible and expect to be compliant for controlled airspace. 

[skippydiesel]

Thanks all.

 

Some thoughts on the matter:

 

This is a very recent installation - only just passed 100 hrs. Commissioned in early 2022

Transponder professionally checked out, certified & issued with Hexadecimal code.

Transponder not required unless entering controlled airspace ( very very infrequent)  however I feel that it adds to security in congested environment like Sydney Basin.

Asides from exorbitant cost, have, to date, been happy with system. Assumed all well and that ATC able to "see" me with all necessary information being relayed (so far no indication to contaray).

Often hear ATC warning other (IFR) aircraft of my presence - system seems to work.

Flight to/from Cowra raised question - on arrival Cowra, told that transponder signal not being picked up by phone/flight not being tracked. 

Further conversation added to my confusion - I assumed that my Trig was delivering "Out" signal - apparently this is/may not be the case (still confused).

Told that a relativly cheap, non fixed, electronic gizmo ("Dongle"?) may deliver IN/OUT  transmission with display of IN (other aircraft location) may be available in OzRunways on iPad????

Asides from the added safety of being able to see more airaft on OzRunways (than current blue bubbles) not at all sure of need to have enhanced transponder.

[Blueadventures]

37 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Thanks all.

 

Some thoughts on the matter:

 

This is a very recent installation - only just passed 100 hrs. Commissioned in early 2022

Transponder professionally checked out, certified & issued with Hexadecimal code.

Transponder not required unless entering controlled airspace ( very very infrequent)  however I feel that it adds to security in congested environment like Sydney Basin.

Asides from exorbitant cost, have, to date, been happy with system. Assumed all well and that ATC able to "see" me with all necessary information being relayed (so far no indication to contaray).

Often hear ATC warning other (IFR) aircraft of my presence - system seems to work.

Flight to/from Cowra raised question - on arrival Cowra, told that transponder signal not being picked up by phone/flight not being tracked. 

Further conversation added to my confusion - I assumed that my Trig was delivering "Out" signal - apparently this is/may not be the case (still confused).

Told that a relativly cheap, non fixed, electronic gizmo ("Dongle"?) may deliver IN/OUT  transmission with display of IN (other aircraft location) may be available in OzRunways on iPad????

Asides from the added safety of being able to see more airaft on OzRunways (than current blue bubbles) not at all sure of need to have enhanced transponder.

Does your set up have an external GPS connected; Trig produce such a certified unit (less than $900AUD).  It's required to like guarantee the location of your aircraft.  The professional person who signed off setting your HEX code should be able to answer your questions.

Edited August 25 by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

58 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Does your set up have an external GPS connected; Trig produce such a certified unit (less than $900AUD).  It's required to like guarantee the location of your aircraft.  The professional person who signed off setting your HEX code should be able to answer your questions.

To the best of my (limited) knowledge there is no dedicated GPS for my Trig transponder - have two other GPS antenna  (not counting hand held) Dynon & iPad.

Assuming existing installation is working (as expected) it already gives - ID, location, hight, speed(?)

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

Thanks all.

 

Some thoughts on the matter:

 

This is a very recent installation - only just passed 100 hrs. Commissioned in early 2022

Transponder professionally checked out, certified & issued with Hexadecimal code.

Transponder not required unless entering controlled airspace ( very very infrequent)  however I feel that it adds to security in congested environment like Sydney Basin.

Asides from exorbitant cost, have, to date, been happy with system. Assumed all well and that ATC able to "see" me with all necessary information being relayed (so far no indication to contaray).

Often hear ATC warning other (IFR) aircraft of my presence - system seems to work.

Flight to/from Cowra raised question - on arrival Cowra, told that transponder signal not being picked up by phone/flight not being tracked. 

Further conversation added to my confusion - I assumed that my Trig was delivering "Out" signal - apparently this is/may not be the case (still confused).

Told that a relativly cheap, non fixed, electronic gizmo ("Dongle"?) may deliver IN/OUT  transmission with display of IN (other aircraft location) may be available in OzRunways on iPad????

Asides from the added safety of being able to see more airaft on OzRunways (than current blue bubbles) not at all sure of need to have enhanced transponder.

Skippy, if you want to fly above 8,500, say between The Oaks and Cowra, that's already controlled airspace (Class E) right?

So you'd need a proper transponder, even if you don't need a clearance. No portable IN/OUT solution is able to provide that (legal) capability.

So I'd have thought that getting your installed ES/ADSB transponder working properly would be worth it for that privilege, alone. Given that you really want that altitude, at times.

In any case, if your Trig is transmitting as an ES/ADSB you can't have any dongle/SE2 going at the same time (other than for their IN function.)

[aro]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

This is a very recent installation - only just passed 100 hrs. Commissioned in early 2022

Transponder professionally checked out, certified & issued with Hexadecimal code.

Transponder not required unless entering controlled airspace ( very very infrequent)  however I feel that it adds to security in congested environment like Sydney Basin.

Asides from exorbitant cost, have, to date, been happy with system. Assumed all well and that ATC able to "see" me with all necessary information being relayed (so far no indication to contaray).

Often hear ATC warning other (IFR) aircraft of my presence - system seems to work.

Flight to/from Cowra raised question - on arrival Cowra, told that transponder signal not being picked up by phone/flight not being tracked. 

I doubt there is any problem with your installation. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to install a new transponder without full ADSB out capability now, so if it was professionally installed it should have the required functions.

 

More likely the person at Cowra wasn't taking the limitations of the receiving equipment into account.

[Thruster88]

3 hours ago, aro said:

I doubt there is any problem with your installation. I'm pretty sure it is illegal to install a new transponder without full ADSB out capability now, so if it was professionally installed it should have the required functions.

 

More likely the person at Cowra wasn't taking the limitations of the receiving equipment into account.

Skippys aircraft did not show on fr24 as he departed and climbed. Aircraft with adsb transponders show on fr24 in the circuit at cowra.

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Skippys aircraft did not show on fr24 as he departed and climbed. Aircraft with adsb transponders show on fr24 in the circuit at cowra.

This maybe why;-  Trig specs - 5.6.9 GPS Position Input 22 September 2017 AQ The GPS position input is required to support ADS-B functionality. The GPS position input is an RS232 input to the transponder. The ADS-B features are optional – no GPS is required for normal Mode S Elementary Surveillance.  Must be why they sell an external and connected GPS.  If RAA get CTA access with RAAus endorsement I'll fit out with the external GPS and have it signed off every two years.

Edited August 25 by Blueadventures

[aro]

1 hour ago, Thruster88 said:

Skippys aircraft did not show on fr24 as he departed and climbed. Aircraft with adsb transponders show on fr24 in the circuit at cowra.

How many FR24 receivers are at Cowra, and where are they located? There is a difference between adsb transponders show on fr24 and adsb transponders always show on FR24.

 

FR24 could be interrupted by internet outage, receiver offline, someone parks a van next to the receiver etc.

 

What's the registration? I can see if I can find other flights on FR24

[Red]

Skippy, sorry if I'm missunderstanding but if you are saying you unsure if you have ADSB enabled

 

1.take plane outside turn on transponder and gps reciever you have fitted. wait a few minutes or untill you get a good fix.

2. wheel plane back inside and close the doors (dont turn anything off)

 

If you have a gps connected  and set up with your Trig then after a short time the display will tell you that you have lost ADSB function

Though tbh iyou do have it set up already you probably would have seen this message before at some point

Edited August 25 by Red

[skippydiesel]

10 minutes ago, Red said:

Skippy, sorry if I'm missunderstanding but if you are saying you unsure if you have ADSB enabled

 

1.take plane outside turn on transponder and gps reciever you have fitted. wait a few minutes or untill you get a good fix.

2. wheel plane back inside and close the doors (dont turn anything off)

 

If you have a gps connected  and set up with your Trig then after a short time the display will tell you that you have lost ADSB function

Though tbh iyou do have it set up already you probably would have seen this message before at some point

Until I made a very pleasant trip to Cowra, I had assumed that my ADSB Mode S transponder was transmitting  "OUT" when it seems it was only transmitting (no OUT) ie I did not understand the significance/requirements for "OUT".

I am fairly sure that ATC  "sees" my ADSB transmissions.

Unfortunatly I have no access to a shed/hanger, either to remove my aircraft from or return it to, with Transponder on.  

[Red]

Sorry skippy.you've lost me, by "OUT" I presume you mean ADSB - out or extended squitter as its sometimes called.

but if your not transmitting it how are you fairly sure ATC is seeing it, it probably sees your mode S but thats not what is being talked about.

 

Not being critical just confused by your reply

 

P.S. of you dont have Hanger access, then the same thing can be achieved by shielding your GPS Antenna (Tin foil hat styleee)

Edited August 25 by Red

[skippydiesel]

I clearly did not understand the equipment requirements for ADSB OUT as in OUT/IN.

 

As for my ADSB-Mode S working - I have frequently heard ATC warn IFR traffic of my presence - I don't think they could be doing this if my transponder was not operating.

 

Will see if the foil hat idea works.

[Bruce Robbins]

Hi Skippy,

I think you (and several others) are confused by ADSB.

First a bit of background info:

 

A transponder is a device that transmits a reply when it is "pinged" or in other words receives a signal from a radar system.

The radar system has to work out where the transponder is. This radar system is called SSR (Secondary Surveillance Radar).

Without a working transponder it cannot "see" your aircraft.

 

Primary Radar is a different system that can see you aircraft whether you have a transponder or not. These are more expensive, shorter range, and Air Services are slowly phasing them out.

 

Transponders work in three different modes.

 

Mode A: The transponder replies with the Squawk Code.

Mode 😄 The transponder replies with Squawk Code and Altitude (based on a preset QNH of 1013)

Mode S: The transponder replies with Squawk Code, Altitude and Aircraft Registration.

 

So in Mode A the ATC controller's radar screen will show a moving dot with the Squawk code. In Mode C he will also see your altitude. In mode S he will see your registration as well.

 

In Mode A,C or S the transponder does NOT know where it is. The radar system has to figure that out.

 

 

ADSB:

Automatic Dependant Surveillance Broadcast (ADSB) is an system that knows where it is, and broadcasts that position.

The out-going broadcast of position is called ADSB OUT.

 

If you have a receiver that picks up the ADSB OUT transmission, and a screen that can display the information, you will be able to see any aircraft with ADSB OUT.

 

To prevent the need to have yet another expensive gizmo fitted to your aircraft, ADSB OUT is implemented by adding extra data to the information already broadcast by a Mode S transponder. In order for the transponder to know where it actually is, it needs to get that information from a GPS.

 

So in summary:

ADSB OUT is an aircraft broadcasting its position via an add-on to a Mode S transponder and cannot work without a GPS.

ADSB IN is listening in to aircraft transmitting their ID and position.

 

Not all transponders are able to transmit the extra ADSB information.

The Trig transponder that you have installed can, hence being described as ADSBOUT capable, but without GPS derived position data is NOT functioning in ADSB OUT mode.

 

Regards,

Bruce  

[aro]

I don't think it's legal to install a transponder without functioning ADSB-OUT for many years now.

 

So if it was professionally installed I would expect ADSB out to be working.

 

I would not rely on Flightradar 24 as an indication it wasn't working.

[Bruce Robbins]

Skippy,

More ADSB ramblings.

 

ATC can see you based on their SSR radar system picking up your Mode S transponder. A  transponder in Mode S is also broadcasting your aircraft ID.

All RA-Aus registered aircraft should have their ID set as R followed by the last four digits of your rego.  eg: R8500.

 

Flight Radar 24 and other tracking apps like FlightAware receive a data feed from the Air Services radar system giving aircraft position and ID.

Air Services only provide the information for Mode S transponders, so if you have Mode A or C transponder you will not appear on FR24.

To determine the aircraft position from a transponder (Mode A C or S) you need a radar system.

 

ADSB OUT is different. The aircraft is broadcasting its own position. Any one with a receiver operating on the right frequency can pick up the information. This is know as ADSB IN.

 

uAvionix make two devices that pickup ADSB transmissions. Ping USB and SkyEcho. If you have a gizmo with an app that can use that information you can plot the position of the aircraft.

 

Avplan and Oz Runways both support those devices and can then show you the aircraft position. This is real time position, and does not need the device to have an internet connection.

[aro]

7 minutes ago, Bruce Robbins said:

Flight Radar 24 and other tracking apps like FlightAware receive a data feed from the Air Services radar system giving aircraft position and ID.

I don't think this is true. Airservices don't provide a feed.

 

Flight Radar 24 receive their data from a network of people running a receiver on a e.g. Raspberry Pi with a USB radio, and sending the data over the internet.

 

It is basically the same as the ADSB devices that feed data to Avplan/OzRunways etc. in flight.

[Bruce Robbins]

Skippy,

Bored yet? 🙂

 

The DYNON Skyview system needs to have a GPS if you want to use their mapping functionality.

The basic GPS is called a SV-GPS-250.

They have another model (SV-GPS-2020) with better accuracy that is required for an IFR installation. It is four times the price.

 

The GPS's are a white plastic lump that look like a small pack of cards, and the only visual difference is the model number printed on it.

The Skyview will list what you have in the settings menu.

 

If you want ADSB OUT, you may be able to connect you Trig transponder to the Dynon System and the Skyview can then supply the GPS data to the Trig so ADSB OUT can be enabled.

 

I have two aircraft with Dynon Skyview and ADSB OUT functionality. Both use the Dynon SV-GPS-250 but have a Dynon transponder.

 

Aircraft 1 has ADSB OUT only.

Aircraft 2 has also been fitted with a Dynon ADSB IN receiver, so on that one we can see ADSB OUT aircraft on the Dynon screen.

 

[Bruce Robbins]

4 minutes ago, aro said:

I don't think this is true. Airservices don't provide a feed.

 

Flight Radar 24 receive their data from a network of people running a receiver on a e.g. Raspberry Pi with a USB radio, and sending the data over the internet.

 

It is basically the same as the ADSB devices that feed data to Avplan/OzRunways etc. in flight.

Hi Aro,

I know about the receiver network. I run one myself that feeds into FlightAware. I put it in because I could only see aircraft down to about 1500' in my local CTAF. I can now track them along the taxiway 🙂

 

 

The receivers will only pickup aircraft running ADSB OUT. They will not pickup any aircraft with transponders only.

An aircraft with a transponder only (no ADSB) will only be detected by a radar system.

 

ADSB OUT is NOT a requirement for VFR in Australia, including access to Class C, D or E airspace.

IFR aircraft DO require ADSB OUT for access to all controlled airspace in Australia.

 

You can replace an existing Mode A or C transponder if it is faulty, but any new installation requires a Mode S transponder.

The Mode S transponder does not require ADSB OUT functionality for VFR.

 

 

 

 

[pmccarthy]

41 minutes ago, aro said:

I don't think it's legal to install a transponder without functioning ADSB-OUT for many years now.

 

So if it was professionally installed I would expect ADSB out to be working.

 

I would not rely on Flightradar 24 as an indication it wasn't working.

Not so as far as I know. Most new transponders in new aircraft may be ADSB capable but don't have to have a GPS source installed.