Transponder ADSB

[kgwilson]

If you are concerned about seeing other ADSB equipped aircraft in your vicinity up to about 20 NM radius, then you need ADSB-IN. If you want those same aircraft to see you then you need ADSB-OUT. If you want access to controlled airspace then you need a Transponder Mode C or S. When you call ATC and are provided with a squawk code & press ident your rego will be registered on the radar to that code & ATC will see your every move.

 

If you have a conspicuity device like Skyecho2 Air services cannot interrogate you but can see you so long as you are in range. They are provided with the GPS location, barometric altitude & aircraft Rego No. For RA aircraft this is the last 4 numbers prefixed with "R". This data is continually broadcast at 1090 Mhz ES (extended squitter) & if you are within line of sight range of Airservices receiver they will see you on the screen without having to do anything. They cannot interrogate you anyway if you do not have a transponder. It is possible for ATC to filter out Conspicuity device transmissions as they have a different downlink code but they don't.

 

I tested this with Coffs ATC 18 months ago when I installed my SE2. Initially I called up the Tower when I was a couple of NM North of Coramba about 11 NM at 2000 feet away but I could not see the airport as there were hills in the way. They could not see me. A couple of minutes later ATC called to say they had me on the radar but it was intermittent. I altered course to fly about 500 metres outside the flat part of the CTR & began climbing to 4000 feet to go through the Mt Moombil saddle to Bellingen. ATC tracked me with perfect accuracy the whole way once full line of sight was gained. I don't know where their receiver is located & initially when I had line of sight their reception was intermittent.

 

The main point was to demonstrate that ATC could see SE2 equipped aircraft as there were lots of rumours and even information published that this was not the case.

 

So in conclusion if you want to fly in CTR make sure your aircraft if fitted with a Mode C or S transponder. If you just want to be able to see other aircraft with ADSB-Out & want them to see you (if they have ADSB-IN) get a SE2. This is a whole lot cheaper than adding ADSB to your transponder & works just as well but with a bit less range.

[skippydiesel]

FYI - Probably repeating what the Guru's have already said. Just got off the phone with a very helpful (Trig) tech person. 

• Yes my transponder can be enhanced, to ADSB -OUT, by purchasing/installing an additional (GPS) module and getting it certified - estimated cost $3k +/-,  part of which I can claim back.
• Yes!  I can have get IN, if I purchase another module $?- no $ claim back
• OR I may be able to purchase a single  IN/OUT module, at a lot more expense  $? and get some refund from the Gov.
• My current Mod S meets all the requirements for entering CTA
• He also advised that IN/OUT is nice to have but of questionable cost effectiveness for the type of flying I do

[Freizeitpilot]

Might be worth reading the Aviation White Paper released today. There is a suggestion that ADS-B may be eventually mandated for all classes of airspace, with an extension of the rebate to 2027.

But as we all know, nothing happens in a hurry, so no need to rush into a purchase decision just yet.

[kgwilson]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

FYI - Probably repeating what the Guru's have already said. Just got off the phone with a very helpful (Trig) tech person. 

• Yes my transponder can be enhanced, to ADSB -OUT, by purchasing/installing an additional (GPS) module and getting it certified - estimated cost $3k +/-,  part of which I can claim back.
• Yes!  I can have get IN, if I purchase another module $?- no $ claim back
• OR I may be able to purchase a single  IN/OUT module, at a lot more expense  $? and get some refund from the Gov.
• My current Mod S meets all the requirements for entering CTA
• He also advised that IN/OUT is nice to have but of questionable cost effectiveness for the type of flying I do

Best & cheapest option is to leave your Transponder alone & get a SE2. With rebate, total cost is $520.00 direct from Uavionix and it interfaces with numerous EFBs including Ozrunways, Avplan and free ones like Enroute Flight Navigation.

 

I use Enroute & see plenty of aircraft around. Most can't see me as they don't have ADSB-IN but as most of the training aircraft around here have Chinese students with poor English skills and the propensity to mix up YGFN (Grafton) with YSGR (South Grafton) with runways 18/36 & 08/26 respectively, it is good to know where they are.

Edited August 26 by kgwilson

[Red]

7 hours ago, Bruce Robbins said:

Hi Aro,

I know about the receiver network. I run one myself that feeds into FlightAware. I put it in because I could only see aircraft down to about 1500' in my local CTAF. I can now track them along the taxiway 🙂

 

 

The receivers will only pickup aircraft running ADSB OUT. They will not pickup any aircraft with transponders only.

An aircraft with a transponder only (no ADSB) will only be detected by a radar system.

 

ADSB OUT is NOT a requirement for VFR in Australia, including access to Class C, D or E airspace.

IFR aircraft DO require ADSB OUT for access to all controlled airspace in Australia.

 

You can replace an existing Mode A or C transponder if it is faulty, but any new installation requires a Mode S transponder.

The Mode S transponder does not require ADSB OUT functionality for VFR.

 

 

 

 

Sounds close to the position here in the UK, except for the IFR requirement .

I.E mode S required for new fit, but can replace existing Mode C with same.

ADSB Is bugger all use here as far as ATC goes (Trials are ongoing and I believe a very small number of ATC units actually have recievers on trial)

 

Only Reason I have ADSB out set up is for other aircraft with a suitable reciever to see me, which similarly seems to be the only gain Skippy would see.

I use  a seperate ADSB reciever, but you could of course  just buy a SkyEcho with in/out, though that would not cover the IFR ADSB requirement you have  which would need fully certified install....dunno if Skippy flys IFR

 

 

[skippydiesel]

"....dunno if Skippy flys IFR"

 

Yes,  I Follow Roads, in strictly day VFR condition😈

[spacesailor]

I like that .

" I Follow Roads " , IFR .

It is new to me .

spacesailor

[Red]

7 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

"....dunno if Skippy flys IFR"

 

Yes,  I Follow Roads, in strictly day VFR condition😈

I still try, but since the councils stopped cutting back the trees and hedges around the bliddy road signs I keep getting lost

[spacesailor]

On the Mitchell hwy.  They cut all those big shady trees down , to widen the road .

spacesailor

 

[Freizeitpilot]

Relevant extract from White Paper………
 

•    Keep the skies safe by reducing collision risk between drones and crewed aircraft. We have established a cross-agency working group, involving the Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development, Communications and the Arts, CASA and Airservices Australia, to advise on implementing a universal ADS-B mandate, across all Australian airspace, for both visual and instrument flight operations. The working group will report to government by late 2025.

[Freizeitpilot]

Oh, and this bit too….

 

•    Extend existing subsidises for the purchase of ADS-B OUT equipment. Existing funding programs will be extended to 30 June 2027 and expanded in scope to include upgrades of equipment to ADS-B IN capabilities in some circumstances.

[Red]

On 26/08/2024 at 12:26 AM, Bruce Robbins said:

Hi Aro,

I know about the receiver network. I run one myself that feeds into FlightAware. I put it in because I could only see aircraft down to about 1500' in my local CTAF. I can now track them along the taxiway 🙂

 

 

The receivers will only pickup aircraft running ADSB OUT. They will not pickup any aircraft with transponders only.

An aircraft with a transponder only (no ADSB) will only be detected by a radar system.

 

ADSB OUT is NOT a requirement for VFR in Australia, including access to Class C, D or E airspace.

IFR aircraft DO require ADSB OUT for access to all controlled airspace in Australia.

 

You can replace an existing Mode A or C transponder if it is faulty, but any new installation requires a Mode S transponder.

The Mode S transponder does not require ADSB OUT functionality for VFR.

 

 

 

 

A lot of us in the UK run something called a Pilot aware, it transmits its own proprietry signal that other Pilot aware users can recieve ...AND.... it recieves ADSB, Mode C/S and Flarm, I was involved in early testing and run one still, its probably the best traffic reciever out there for small GA use...actually forget probably it IS the best Traffic reciever out there for small GA use😁

Edited August 28 by Red

[skippydiesel]

I now have a SkyEcho 2 "connected" to my iPad mini/OzRunways.

At this stage, I believe I am "legal" to have both Trigg Mode S transponder AND SE2 operating at the same time.

Current weather preventing test flying - will let you know how it goes.😈

[coljones]

10 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I now have a SkyEcho 2 "connected" to my iPad mini/OzRunways.

At this stage, I believe I am "legal" to have both Trigg Mode S transponder AND SE2 operating at the same time.

Current weather preventing test flying - will let you know how it goes.😈

If your Mode S transponder has an active ADSB-Out you are not permitted to allow your SE2 to transmit ADSB-Out but you can receive. Enjoy the flying - the weather is stuffing us in the Sydney Basin.

[skippydiesel]

Below is the CASA response to my enquiry on operating a Mode S and SkyEcho 2 at the same time.

 

"Thank you for the enquiry.

 

Subsection 26.72C (2) of the Part 91 Manual of Standards (MOS) has clear direction about the simultaneous operation of an Electronic Conspicuity 9EC) device (such as your SkyEcho 2) and a Mode S transponder. It states:

 

(2) The EC device must not be operated in transmitting mode concurrently with a Mode S transponder that is also transmitting ADS-B.

 

Note An EC device may be operated concurrently with a Mode A/C, or a Mode S transponder (other than one that is transmitting ADS-B) but it is not a substitute for mandatory carriage of a transponder in relevant airspace.

 

 

In effect, the subsection allows simultaneous operation if the Mode S transponder is not connected to a GNSS position source and thus not transmitting ADS-B position information.

 

The required outcome is that a single aircraft does not transmit two sets of ADS-B position information.

 

If your configuration meets the restriction of subsection 26.72C (2), then there should be no issue with operating both transponder and EC device, even if both have the same 24-bit register (coding).

 

Yours sincerely"  

 

I phoned for the "man in the street interpretation" - In simple/my language:

• You should not operate two ADS-B IN/OUT devices in your aircraft at the same time.
• My Trigg transponder is ONLY operating in Mode S, so I can have my SkyEcho 2 operating in both IN & OUT without breaking any rules.

 

 

[Thruster88]

One way to know for sure if your transponder is transmitting adsb is to disable to transmit function on the SkyEcho2 and go flying. If your SkyEcho2 can't "see" your aircraft then you don't have adsb working.

 

In my RV with the uAvionics tailbeacon X / av30c combo and SkyEcho2 set to receive only I can see my aircraft call sign and altitude displayed constantly confirming correct operation of both the in and out function of adsb. Very nice.

[RFguy]

mode S doesnt mean ADSB.    ADSB is a Mode-S extension.

it's quite fine to have Mode S transponder (plain vanilla Mode S, not Mode S including ADSB) and ADSB OUT (skyecho) going.

 

[BurnieM]

I think Skippy has already established that his Trig transponder is only transmitting mode S but not extended splitter (ADS-B)

 

Edited Tuesday at 07:33 AM by BurnieM