Runway excursion Cessnock 29/4/24

[red750]

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Runway excursion Incident Piper PA-28-181 Archer II VH-KLU, Thursday 29 August 2024

ASN.FLIGHTSAFETY.ORG

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A Piper PA-28-181 Archer II veered off the runway when landing at Cessnock Airport (CES/YCNK), Cessnock, New South Wales, and crashed into a fence. The pilot was seriously injured and ta...

 

[skippydiesel]

The pilot was seriously injured

Given what can be seen of the cockpit, this likly means that the pilot :

• Failed to wear seat belts correctly
• Failure of set belt and or seat
• Something incorrectly secured ,has hit him

[DrChicken]

He didn't flare properly, ballooned down the runway, ended up fracturing some ribs. The seatbelt was on, when he hit the fence he went into the control column pretty hard.

[kgwilson]

Lap belts don't restrain your torso and head from being propelled in to the control column and panel.

[Red]

I've no idea if this aircraft had fitted shoulder harness (I did think pretty much all the older PA-28s had been retrofitted), but to me it's crazy not to fit them

I hope the guy is ok, Fractured ribs hurt like hell and there is no way you can immobilise them (you simply have to breath)

[DrChicken]

7 hours ago, Red said:

I've no idea if this aircraft had fitted shoulder harness (I did think pretty much all the older PA-28s had been retrofitted), but to me it's crazy not to fit them

I hope the guy is ok, Fractured ribs hurt like hell and there is no way you can immobilise them (you simply have to breath)

It wasn't retrofitted iirc. My only issue with KLU was the horrendous com 1 with an old LCD display - you couldn't see the frequency unless you were looking at it directly front on. 

 

I think he's okay but it if I had to be completely honest, he was a way off from being signed off for solo but that's just another opinion.

[KRviator]

9 hours ago, Red said:

I've no idea if this aircraft had fitted shoulder harness (I did think pretty much all the older PA-28s had been retrofitted), but to me it's crazy not to fit them

I hope the guy is ok, Fractured ribs hurt like hell and there is no way you can immobilise them (you simply have to breath)

I'm not sure I'd be willing to fly in something that didn't have shoulder harnesses - but in saying that, they still have their limitations. Even the RV's with a 4/5 point harness have a dangerous tendancy to bend the longerons in a sudden stop causing the shoulder harness attachment points to move forward, loosening the harness and rendering it less (or in-) effective.

[Red]

7 hours ago, KRviator said:

I'm not sure I'd be willing to fly in something that didn't have shoulder harnesses - but in saying that, they still have their limitations. Even the RV's with a 4/5 point harness have a dangerous tendancy to bend the longerons in a sudden stop causing the shoulder harness attachment points to move forward, loosening the harness and rendering it less (or in-) effective.

Not optimum perhaps but I wouldnt call that ineffective, the energy absorbed by bending or even breaking the Longerons is energy the body no longer has if/when it hits something

I dont even like flying in aircraft that only have one cross over shoulder harness tbh, mine has a 4 point .

a quick thought on some 4 point setups I see the occupant has the lap straps way too high up on the torso (body shape plays a part), its possible to actually slide under such a setup in a crash and impart lower body injuries that might have not incurred if the straps were correctly placed....and If you fly with them loose for comfort in the cruise practice how to tighten them quickly

[skippydiesel]

I was taught to FIRST do the lap belt up nice a snug, low on the hips, making sure there was nothing, other than a layer of clothing, between belt & skin (no keys, pocket knife, wallet etc)- then do the shoulder straps snug. My shoulder straps have a quick release tab, so that I can loosed one/both in flight to reach across the cockpit (retighten after job done). Check again for tightness before landing.

[Red]

Sounds like a good setup Skippy

 

[spacesailor]

I bought a five point harness for the Hummel-Bird. 

But weight saving decreed a simple lap belt .

No credit for ' safety ' of those heavier " safety " harness. 

spacesailor

[Moneybox]

I took a look at the seat belt mounting in the Evector Harmony that I train in. The Australian standard automotive harness mounting was 7/16” UNF. The harmony 4-point harness is secured with a 6mm SS bolt at the top. 

[Red]

6mm Stainless steel seems a little under engineered to me unless its in double shear..........but I guess they know what they are doing

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I took a look at the seat belt mounting in the Evector Harmony that I train in. The Australian standard automotive harness mounting was 7/16” UNF. The harmony 4-point harness is secured with a 6mm SS bolt at the top. 

While that wouldn't be satisfactory for automotive use, automotive is focused (possibly incorrectly) on frontal collisions against immovable objects.

 

An aircraft can hit hard from any direction and there's not much point in having a fail-proof bolt size if the harness bracket is going to shear off the frame or a frame member is going to shear at less than the bolt shear. Maybe an engineer has carefully calculated the 6 mm SS bolt on the basis of brain damage, maybe there wasn't an engineer involved.

[kgwilson]

18 hours ago, Red said:

Not optimum perhaps but I wouldnt call that ineffective, the energy absorbed by bending or even breaking the Longerons is energy the body no longer has if/when it hits something

I dont even like flying in aircraft that only have one cross over shoulder harness tbh, mine has a 4 point .

a quick thought on some 4 point setups I see the occupant has the lap straps way too high up on the torso (body shape plays a part), its possible to actually slide under such a setup in a crash and impart lower body injuries that might have not incurred if the straps were correctly placed....and If you fly with them loose for comfort in the cruise practice how to tighten them quickly

Five point harnesses are the best and most secure. You can't slide out under them. However all harnesses should be adjusted so that they hold you firmly in place without discomfort. Any slack will cause some damage to your body in the event of a crash, the very least being severe bruising. I have 4 point harnesses in my aircraft and can easily adjust the shoulder straps  in flight by grabbing the tab and pulling it up to loosen that side and the same for the other side in order to reach over to get something etc. Tightening is just as easy by pulling the main adjustment strap down.

 

I always fly with my harness firm as unexpected turbulence then doesn't throw you around. Tightening harness straps for landing is part of my forced landing procedure, immediately following unlatching the canopy.

[Moneybox]

8 hours ago, turboplanner said:

While that wouldn't be satisfactory for automotive use, automotive is focused (possibly incorrectly) on frontal collisions against immovable objects.

 

An aircraft can hit hard from any direction and there's not much point in having a fail-proof bolt size if the harness bracket is going to shear off the frame or a frame member is going to shear at less than the bolt shear. Maybe an engineer has carefully calculated the 6 mm SS bolt on the basis of brain damage, maybe there wasn't an engineer involved.

Perhaps Red is right, it may be in double shear but I'd have to take another look. I guess if the mounting was to let go you'd be better off wacked in the back of the head with a 6mm rather than a 7/16" bolt 🤕

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

Perhaps Red is right, it may be in double shear but I'd have to take another look. I guess if the mounting was to let go you'd be better off wacked in the back of the head with a 6mm rather than a 7/16" bolt 🤕

The bolts could shoot several places but below your head; I haven't posted any angle for the top straps because there was conflicting evidence but anchor points straight back from the top of your shoulders are a starting with one source recommending a maximum of 20 degrees down from the shoulders. Anything below the shoulder is moving towards crushing shoulder bones downward and anything above the shoulder is allowing you to move up from the ideal restraint. Similarly there's an optimum downward angle for the cross belt so it keeps your hips pulled tightly into the backrest/squab. the anti-submarine belt also has an optimum position.  Never just pull your shoulder belts down; I used to do that until one of the guys came down hard from about 4 metres head first. He had tightened his shoulder belts so the shoulders took the first impact, then the weight of his lower body and upper legs crushed his spine and he became a paraplegic and to add insult to injury the looser waist belt movement castrated him. I mentioned the various opinions so I'd recommend consulting an expert if you're going from scratch. 

[onetrack]

Stainless steel bolts can never be rated as "high tensile", you need low-alloy steel for that requirement. 6mm diameter sounds to me like a serious under-estimation, or under engineering, of the loading on them, in a major crash.