Light plane crash Redesdale Vic 13/09/24 One dead.

[Red]

36 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Flightrite, a search reveals no-one by the name of Mark Freedtone of Penfield. Did you mean to type Freestone or Freedstone? Have the Police released the pilots name?

 

It's bad form to name deceased pilots in crashes, before the Police have publicly released the pilots name officially.

 

Meantimes, the ATSB has stated that they're not investigating, as the aircraft was RA-registered. There can't be too many Bristells on the RA register?

Onetrack, I try to stay out of discussions on recent accidents but picking up on your point of the ATSB not investigating as its a recreational aircraft...is thst the usual stance?

Bloody awfull attitude if that is the case

[Jerry_Atrick]

Yes it is usual.. and yes, it is bloody awful.. and a travesty.. That discussion best saved for another thread

 

 

Edited September 15 by Jerry_Atrick

[onetrack]

Red, the ATSB only investigate VH-registered aircraft crashes in Australia (as well as other major transportation crashes, such as rail) - and even then, they operate on a limited budget, and only investigate at their discretion, on the basis that an investigation is only warranted if something new is to be learned from any particular crash.

 

Recreational Aviation Australia is classed by CASA as an Approved Self-administering Aviation Organisation", and as such, investigates most serious RA-registered crashes, in conjunction with other Govt authorities such as the Police and the Coroner. As always, investigations are tempered by the availability of qualified investigating personnel, and whether anything is to be learned from each particular serious crash.

 

As is well known, all the basic reasons for crashing haven't changed in over 120 years, pilots just keep making the same mistakes.

 

https://raaus.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/Strategic-Plan-2023-2025.pdf

[Red]

Onetrack thanks for the reply.

I think a fatal crash is serious whatever class of aircraft its in and should warrant some sort of investigation by the overseeing aviation body (just my opinion) and though I get your point about crash causes (mostly) sometimes an investigation can uncover underlying faults in an aircraft its not always Pilot error. (perhaps there is sufficient knowledge and experience in the RA association to accomplish the same?)

Anyway as Jerry said probably not right thread for this.

 

 

Edited September 15 by Red

[FlyBoy1960]

I agree with one track, a  single aircraft incident, with or without fatalities is unlikely to be investigated by the ADSB. Had the same aircraft run into a house, a preschool or any public building then of course it would be thoroughly investigated (and the pilot, ((cowboy)) in said recreational aircraft) found guilty in record time.

[BrendAn]

On 15/09/2024 at 8:28 PM, onetrack said:

Flightrite, a search reveals no-one by the name of Mark Freedtone of Penfield. Did you mean to type Freestone or Freedstone? Have the Police released the pilots name?

 

It's bad form to name deceased pilots in crashes, before the Police have publicly released the pilots name officially.

 

Meantimes, the ATSB has stated that they're not investigating, as the aircraft was RA-registered. There can't be too many Bristells on the RA register?

There are 5 bristells at our airfield. All raas

Edited September 17 by BrendAn

[Blueadventures]

5 hours ago, BrendAn said:

There are 5 bristells at our airfield. All raas

3 up this way (Mackay, Whitsunday and Ayr)

[onetrack]

Meantimes, Channel 7 has dug up a couple of the most highly qualified "aviation experts" (with one broadcasting from his bedroom, showing an unmade bed in the background!), and they have expertly identified the aircraft as a Cirrus, without even visiting the scene!! It's some amazing skills that these people display!

 

VicPol still have not yet released the pilots name.

 

Man dead in light plane crash in Victoria

7NEWS.COM.AU

---

The man died at the site of the crash.

 

[djpacro]

Even I can tell the difference between .... an unmade bed and a made bed which is what it was.

[onetrack]

I'm sorry DJP, for trying to pose as a bed expert. I won't do it again, I promise.

[ClintonB]

hopefully we can find out why a deployed chute did not save this aircraft. Most people would assume that this safety device can get you out of a sticky situation. 

We wondered why the cirrus near Canberra last year, didn't have its chute deployed i.e. very sudden onset of medical episode. extreme structure failure?

it might help someone later if they know limitations in a practical use situation or whether to save the expense and just put more $$ in the church tin on Sunday and accept this is the end.

 

[Red]

On 15/09/2024 at 10:25 PM, FlyBoy1960 said:

I agree with one track, a  single aircraft incident, with or without fatalities is unlikely to be investigated by the ADSB. Had the same aircraft run into a house, a preschool or any public building then of course it would be thoroughly investigated (and the pilot, ((cowboy)) in said recreational aircraft) found guilty in record time.

Personally wasn't questioning what the procedure is rather the sense in it.

 

Your Cowboy comment would probably not be appreciated by any friends or family of this or other similar events when coming across this thread (things said on the internet stay around a loooong time and a quick google will dredge them up)

[red750]

One can only assume that the chute was deployed too low ot too late.

[Deano747]

2 hours ago, ClintonB said:

 

it might help someone later if they know limitations in a practical use situation or whether to save the expense and just put more $$ in the church tin on Sunday and accept this is the end.

 

Every parachute comes with a detailed instruction manual including limitations.

Up to the operator to know those .........

I don't know what brand the Bristell uses, but if it was a Galaxy GRS Ballistic chute and assuming the GRS 6, then just over 300 feet AGL in level flight, 400 feet level inverted, 500 feet in a spin and 600 feet in inverted spin. (figures absolute minimum test results and rounded up from metric  - I use 500' same as the Cirrus as an easy height to remember and add it my x-wind turn. "500'- chute available clear left/right").

Galaxy have a great paragraph 

Quote 'You have a GRS only for additional security in the event that your skills, planning, judgement or careful equipment maintenance have failed to avoid a hazardous situation.
When you use an emergency parachute system you may enter an unpredictable situation but the chances of saving your life are much higher than without it.'

 

[Arron25]

11 hours ago, Red said:

 

 

Your Cowboy comment

The descriptor was used as a reference to How the 'media induced great unwashed' perceive ANYONE who flys a small plane (smaller than a 737??...)

[IBob]

10 hours ago, red750 said:

One can only assume that the chute was deployed too low ot too late.

Round canopies can open very slowly, or fail to open at all. It was unusual but not that unusual in sport jumping and there was often no identifiable reason.
It used to be assumed that meticulous packing, with every gore laid out absolutely identical to within fractions of an inch, would help prevent this. But slow motion footage of openings shows that, once out of the container, the canopy may move around in all sorts of ways prior to opening. Back when all canopies were round, one jumper at our dropzone routinely did twice as many jumps as anyone else. And to do that...to land, pack and be ready....he would 'trash pack': just a basic standing one sided flaking of the canopy, then pull on the sleeve (as distinct to the standard, which was to tension and split the canopy into L and R and fold each side carefully on the ground, then fold in and pull on sleeve.) He never had a malfunction or bad opening in the 2+ years I was there.

[IBob]

Having said that, given modern methods, I'm sure the manufacturers will have made real progress in optimising openings.
Also an aircraft canopy has no modifications (holes cut in to generate horizontal movement), and is attached via a single point (where a jump canopy is attached at two, potentially uneven, shoulder points), both of which will contribute to more reliable openings.

[red750]

Back in my early days in the bank, (early sixties), I knew a girl who worked in another bank in the same suburb, and was going with a colleague from my branch, who was a skydiver. Sadly, she got into a spin, failed to open her chute, and died.

[IBob]

Yes. Unstable openings (opening while unstable), every jumpmaster's bad dream. For which reason the training back then focused hugely on maintaining a stable position (spread wide and arch back) and didn't normally progress beyond static line until the student could demonstrate that. In training we used to cut a little skydiver out of paper, bend him into an arch and drop him: regardless of attitude he will flip into a face down stable position and fall that way.
Nowadays they do AFF (advanced freefall) courses where the student exits at altitude with 2 instructors holding them stable from the first jump. Youtube has some horror shows as to what sometimes happens when the student is let go on subsequent jumps.
Arching and relaxing is an easy position (it's the laziest of sports)...just happens to be the opposite of the foetal position that fear is recommending at the time.

[Hwansey]

Given the requirements to record annual aircraft hours and landing for RA-AUS registration, it might be constructive to know the accident rate for the NG 4 and 5.  It should also be possible to state the experience of the pilot given the information held by RA-AUS. 
Then, perhaps, one could make a subjective assessment as to whether or not the type was suitable for the proposed operation. 

I am confident that the historical incident rates for say the C180, would suggest that its high incident rate was directly proportional to the experience of the operator. 
Experienced operators found the type to be immensely satisfying to own and fly this supremely capable machine, and this may well be the case with the Bristell. 
But the C180 was not for beginners and the Bristell may be likewise. 

[BrendAn]

[BrendAn]

I don't understand why the atsb thinks there is nothing to gain investigating raas accidents.

Especially with new group g .

[facthunter]

It has limited finances available and  requires a priority be applied. Costs would . sink RAAus. The state police and the Coroners  have the authority. To do it..   Nev

[BrendAn]

Understandable but you have to wonder what information gets missed that could prevent another occurrence. 

So if you crash in your raas Cessna 150 group g  the atsb won't look at it but if you crash your vh reg c150 they might. I guess what I am saying is how can they investigate one and not the other.

Edited September 19 by BrendAn

[onetrack]

Brendan, the ATSB works on the basis if they see anything new in the latest crash, especially related to particular aircraft faults that were previously unknown, they will investigate it.

 

Otherwise, there's little to be learnt from investigations that find the pilot simply did the same stupid things as thousands of pilots have done before.....

 

1. Carried out unauthorised aerobatics ...

2. Flew while under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or even prescription medications, where the doctors and drug manufacturers advice was not to drive machines whilst taking them....

3. Flew into IMC or poor light with no IFR qualifications, against all their training...

4. Failed to completely understand what important controls do, under varying circumstances...

5. Failed to exercise good judgment when faced with important decision-making...

6. Failed to keep track of their precise position...

7. Failed to keep track of their fuel reserves...

8. Indulged in showing off with unauthorised manouevres, trying to impress pax...

9. Failed to understand the importance of a major deterioration in weather conditions...

10. Failed to keep themselves aware of other aircraft in their vicinity...

11. Failed to keep up a professional level of preciseness in aircraft operation, especially when it came to checklists...

 

And so on ... and so on. There are hundreds of crash investigations that all tell similar stories, and only a few where something completely new was learnt.