Human factors and long flights

[SGM]

I'm planning (another) trip flying Melbourne to Gold Coast.  It works out at about 440 minutes (7 hours 20 minutes) of flight time, no autopilot.  I've done before (once up, once back), but as a comparatively low-time pilot I have previously had a passenger and overnight stop halfway.

This time I am solo and I am interested to know whether others have done... (trying poll feature)


 

[Moneybox]

I've driven a lot longer than that when I was younger but driving a motor vehicle on land is a lot more stimulating than flying straight and level. I think it'd be a risky move if you're not used to long stints. I once drove in the Get With The Strength, Commonwealth Bank rally that was over 1000km in a night. Another time I did nine hours Brisbane to Sydney via the New England Highway but on both of these occasions I was driving flat-out so no chance of dropping to sleep.

 

I take it you're talking about doing it non-stop?

Edited Monday at 10:07 AM by Moneybox

[rgmwa]

Flying seven hours in a day on a commercial flight/s is tiring enough. Why would you do it in a light aircraft? I know plenty of people do, but it’s not my idea of a good time. No doubt age is a factor. I’ve done 3-1/2 hour flights, but after landing, tying down, organising fuel and accommodation I’m ready to head for the bar for some lemonade.

[Red]

I've done 7 hours in one day solo in a microlight but I was 12 years younger and 4 other microlights were doing the same trip so we could support each other along the way, I wouldnt do it now

Plan to overnight if needed and listen to your body

Edited Monday at 11:12 AM by Red

[spacesailor]

Wouldn't it be more constructive,  to see more of the places you have flown over .

Lots of coffee stops , to visit .

Possibly a few ' formulates ' would welcome your visit .  ( hint hint ) .

Remember " long distance solo sailers go mad " .

spacesailor

 

[rodgerc]

Break the flight into 2 days and you’re more likely to be around to do it again.

[RFguy]

If it was high summer, you might do it in one day-  IE lots of light and potential for a 2 hour rest in the middle..

but I am sure you are going to feel like sh1t after two legs ... IE not going to enjoy the last hour, 

and ask yourself, would you pass your BFR in the last hour of the 7 hour flight???

 

>3.5 to 4 hours  a leg is about the threshold for where I no longer enjoy it and, and the threshold where I might be fatigue compromised to deal with a difficult crosswind. 

 

But, it depends on the weather.

and having an autopilot if good weather might assist depending on your aircraft rigging and fuel balance...

(My Piper flys hands off S&L) 

Going out to broken hill at FL125  with no wind, clear skies, I was fresh as a daisy after 3.5 hours...

 

Going from the YPMQ on coast over to Cowra, a similar distance, in poor, awful  terrible weather crossing the range the whole way, I was trashed after 3.5 hours and elected 'to the easy way out' and do a straight-in & land on the grass at Cowra  into  the wind, rather than go into circuit and deal with the moderate X wind .... 

Edited Monday at 09:45 PM by RFguy

[Flightrite]

There’s that old saying, just because you can doesn’t  mean you should. 
I drive a plane 8-9 hours some days but that’s not by choice and I’m not the only one in the pit of cocks. I do notice I’m not as alert after that amount of driving a plane, personally I’d never drive that long in a single day, I value my life more. Stay safe and ask yourself, is it really necessary and is money the driving factor? 

[JMLIS]

I am sure my log book would show quite a few 8 hour plus flights from Narrabri to the gulf over the years. The secret is a good break with refreshments about every three hours. I have recently been regularly flying 6 hours between Lismore and Bowen with a midway break and arrive quite relaxed. Being a retired grazier I fly relatively low (500 to 1500 above terrain) and enjoy the view of the countryside.

[skippydiesel]

For several years, I have been planning my big cross country, Sydney/Perth/Return .

I have based my flight legs, on 2-3hr X 2 legs /day.

From past experince 2-3 hrs is about right for me. A wee break and a walk  to exercise muscles that have been in one position for a tad to long, brings me back up to speed. 

In the past I have flown for 6 hrs in the one day, again with 2-3hr legs - doable IF refueling doesn't take too long, the air is smooth and there is a known bed/food at the end of the day.

[facthunter]

Now we are qualifying it. It's legal and if conditions are good it's very pleasurable. and there's very little effort in the actual flying.. Proper planning helps. On some other days you shouldn't fly at all.. Nev

[Ironpot]

If it’s the right aircraft and it’s suitably equipped ( autopilot?) it’s not a problem.  

[Blueadventures]

I voted No.  What I do on 2 to 4.5 hour x/c flights is plan during the flight have some muesli / trail bars and sip water.  An example is on a 4.5 hour flight at one hour into flight I have a small muesli bar, at two hours have another small bar at 3 hours have a larger / thicker size oat muesli bar at 4 hours have another small muesli bar and sip some water with each (an apple is at times used to replace a muesli bar at times if in season).  The added benefit I believe is the eating / chewing is a beneficial distraction and fatigue / boredom management to the flying I'm doing.  I don't have auto pilot and started the method as a glider pilot on 5 hours plus flights.  The hour interval is good as coincides with some of my fuel checks etc.  Normally fly non stop.

Edited Tuesday at 12:34 AM by Blueadventures

[skippydiesel]

Interesting -when driving (generally more stimulating environment) opinion is stop every two hrs. Can't say I follow this advice "religiously" but do accept its good.

 

We don't just need to stay energised & hydrated, we also benefit from a brisk walk, brief change of scene/pase, possibly a chat with a fellow pilot.

 

Fatigue is insidious, can not be prevented but can be managed to some degree.

From memory: Industrial studies, measuring response times (as a measure of fatigue - wish I could find the relevant chart) show that at the beginning of the work day,  there is a steep rise in alertness, followed by a slow decline/increase in fatigue.

This pattern is repeated after every break with the peak alertness being lower after every break, as the day/duty cycle continues. The overall decline is a continuous slope down from the initial high.

So breaks slow, do not prevent, the inevitable onset of dangerous levels of fatigue.

An experienced individual (say driving a truck) will learn to mask the effects of fatigue, continue to function is if unafted BUT when tested for response  times, shown the same decline as a non experienced person.

The limit of safe function is about 9 hrs, with appropriate breaks. This is for experienced truck drivers - relate this to a pilot in a small aircraft, operating in a three dimensional environment, in changing weather conditions, possible low level hypoxia, communication demands and unfamiliar rout/airfields.

 

The take home message is clear: You may feel you are in top form BUT put you under stress/an unforeseen/unusual situaton and you may be a danger to yourself and others - take the breaks and limit the total flying hours per day.

 

 

[facthunter]

A bit of adrenalin helps when you do it and things get a bit more stressful.  Night flying is much more of a trap. Circadian rhythm. The effort is much less than with a truck..   Nev.

[RossK]

I would, but I'd plan to keep each leg less than 150 minutes each, with at least a 30 minute break on the ground (refuel plane and self etc). So, you're looking at 8.5hrs minimum.

I've done 3.5hr legs and I really need a stop by then, but that is with a passenger to keep me entertained. 

I couldn't imagine doing 3.5hrs and then trying to do it again on my own.

[pmccarthy]

How about this for adrenalin boosting?

 

[Moneybox]

It's easy driving if you're setup for it. I just travelled from Cue to Brisbane, nearly 5000km and travelled around 900km each day and 1100 on the last day. The difference is that I have a kitchen, toilet, shower and bed on board. Whenever I felt weary I just parked anywhere off the road, walked down the back and dropped to sleep, sometimes for 15min sometimes for more than an hour and I only travelled in daylight hours. It's a bit difficult to take a powernap while souring at 5000ft.

[Moneybox]

I'm a bit pissed off at the moment. I drove 8hs down to Jandakot on Sunday to commence my training. I couldn't get in until 2:30 this afternoon but I just received notice that we have 35-40kts with turbulence at 1000' and 15kt cross wind. No flying today and tomorrow we expect the bad weather to intensify with hail likely.

[skippydiesel]

Moneybox,

 

All too often I have driven for 10 + hrs with only a fuel stop or two and I know better -it's stupid but that's what testosterone does for you.

 

The problem is, by the time you start to feel fatigued/bit sleepy, your ability to handle an emergency, has already degraded to the point being lethal, if not for you then other road users.

 

People think microsleeps are the problem - they are but a symptom of extreme exhaustion.  In this situaton the driver has been increasingly unable to respond, in timely/appropriate manor,  to a sudden problem for very many hours.

[Thruster88]

2 hours ago, Moneybox said:

I'm a bit pissed off at the moment. I drove 8hs down to Jandakot on Sunday to commence my training. I couldn't get in until 2:30 this afternoon but I just received notice that we have 35-40kts with turbulence at 1000' and 15kt cross wind. No flying today and tomorrow we expect the bad weather to intensify with hail likely.

Windy is  an excellent app for flight planning. Can start looking 3-4 days out to see if a flight will be possible.

[Moneybox]

31 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Windy is  an excellent app for flight planning. Can start looking 3-4 days out to see if a flight will be possible.

Yes thank you, I do use Windy.com but today's weather blew up unexpectantly but it blew away just as quickly so I managed to get up for 0.8hrs. Now I'm a little more contented 😊

[Blueadventures]

35 minutes ago, Moneybox said:

Yes thank you, I do use Windy.com but today's weather blew up unexpectantly but it blew away just as quickly so I managed to get up for 0.8hrs. Now I'm a little more contented 😊

Nice, just be patient as the weather has got to suit the lesson plan task and experience.  You will need to do the same when solo.  Never give in to the get there itis pressures when you solo, it can be a killer.

[rgmwa]

Which flight school are you training with? Planning to do a concentrated course or stretching it out a bit?

[Moneybox]

On 01/10/2024 at 7:25 PM, rgmwa said:

Which flight school are you training with? Planning to do a concentrated course or stretching it out a bit?

Before this I did 25hrs with Cloud Dancer in Jandakot but stopped waiting for my medical to come through. That was back in March and April so I've had five months off so I was a little rusty for the first flight yesterday. That's why I'm trying to get this plane sorted out quickly then I can continue flying once I get the certificate. There'll still be a lot to learn so if I can't continue to fly I may as well give up now.