Midair Oakdale area 26 October 2024 - Fatal injuries reported

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

It would appear that both aircraft were in the oaks circuit intentionally and became aware of their proximity. Once the turning started only one of the three pilots would have had any chance of seeing the other aircraft. 

I heard the Cessna was in the circuit and the jab  was climbing and clipped the Cessna's tail . 

[Thruster88]

1 minute ago, flying dog said:

(Not at thruster88)

 

So if the Cessna was in the circuit why wasn't it on the Oaks frequency?

We don't know if it wasn't. Comms can fail. The nay sayers like to point out that traffic on a screen can fail, that is true as well.

[flying dog]

Has CASA looked at the radios of both planes yet?

 

(Ah, the old days when you had dials to set the radio frequency.   These days you need to apply power to the radio as the frequency is shown on the display.)  😉

[BrendAn]

52 minutes ago, flying dog said:

(Not at thruster88)

 

So if the Cessna was in the circuit why wasn't it on the Oaks frequency?

its not hard to miss a call . did the cessna call inbound when the other pilot was on awis channell or preoccupied with something else. did everyone make all the calls.  

[BrendAn]

that jabiru had skylights above the pilot which i hadn't seen on other jabs, but who would look up climbing out . straight ahead and scanning side to side is the normal thing isn't it.

[flying dog]

3 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

did the cessna call inbound when the other pilot was on awis channell or preoccupied with something else. did everyone make all the calls.  

 

Yeah, ok....

 

We (all of us) are now making this a pissing contest.

 

It happened.   People died.  How it EXACTLY happened:  no one will ever know.

 

But we need to learn from it.

 

I hope that doesn't mean we all have to fly million dollar planes.  (to say)

 

[red750]

A man who was among three people killed when two light planes collided in a horror crash has been identified. 

 

Khadervali Gagguturu, 60, died when his Jabiru aircraft hit a yellow Cessna 182 over Belimbla Park, in Oakdale, in Sydney's southwest, at about 11.50am on Saturday. 

 

He has been remembered as someone who was passionate about flying and had a 'heart of gold'.

 

[flying dog]

Na. not going to justify that.

[BrendAn]

i didn't think i said anything wrong but you start hurling insults.  whats the point of a forum if you can't say anything. 

 

[BrendAn]

5 minutes ago, flying dog said:

Na. not going to justify that.

because you can't

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, flying dog said:

Na. not going to justify that.

i had the comment removed. i should not have said that. sorry

[red750]

The identity of a third pilot to perish in a horrific mid-air collision has been revealed. 

 

Jake Anastas, 29, was one of three people killed when two light planes collided over Belimbla Park, in Oakdale, in Sydney's southwest, about 11.50am on Saturday.

 

Daily Mail.

[F10]

14 hours ago, BrendAn said:

that jabiru had skylights above the pilot which i hadn't seen on other jabs, but who would look up climbing out . straight ahead and scanning side to side is the normal thing isn't it.

Yes, for example my Gazelle, has a clear roof panel, which offers a good view but only in a turn when banked over, you can clear the turn as you go, by looking through the roof. Straight and level it doesn't help much.

[facthunter]

Inexperienced pilots shouldn't be looking through the roof in a turn and anyone else should be very wary dong it too. Getting it wrong in turns in the circuit is common and often with disastrous results.. Nev

[F10]

Another thought on the whole CTAF thing. I have always thought 10NM around a CTAF airfield was a pretty large area. you can hardly see the airfield at ten miles. I felt 5NM to be more realistic of a circuit size. If you are flying a fast aircraft, well then yes, you would start monitoring the CTAF a bit further out. In this case, these two airfields 10NM zones would have overlapped? So to my mind they should have had a common CTAF frequency. This does depend on how busy they are. In that case ERSA should specify a geographical position for a frequency boundary between the two. As I said, operating RAAF East and West Sale, during CTAF ops on one frequency, works well but traffic volume allows it so radio is never very busy. In another country I flew in, there was a common advisory 124.7 as I recall, which everyone gave regular blind Tx position reports on. It could get busy in areas, but at least you became aware of traffic that was close to you. Most people would call at of before 5 miles on a designated CTAF when joining a circuit. Otherwise everyone was on 124.7. This was I will say, before the advent of ADSB.  

[F10]

3 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Inexperienced pilots shouldn't be looking through the roof in a turn and anyone else should be very wary dong it too. Getting it wrong in turns in the circuit is common and often with disastrous results.. Nev

Why? Glancing up through a clear roof panel banked over, should not be a problem? your normal turn scan would still be in the work cycle. What do you mean by "getting it wrong"?

[Bosi72]

Here is the Adsb traffic at Oaks at the time of accident.

Two RAA aircraft departing North, then shortly returning back. 

R4079 did a circuit on the way back.

 

https://globe.adsbexchange.com/?replay=2024-10-27-00:25&lat=-34.05&lon=150.6&zoom=12

click buttons L and O to see labels.

 

No Adsb traffic information from Cessna.

 

 

[skippydiesel]

It would seem likly that the Jab was fitted with a SkyEcho (or similar) system (ADSB IN/OUT) - hence the availability of a track.

[F10]

Can you confirm, with just Sky Echo, an ADSB equipped aircraft will see you...but you won't see them? To me a good lookout will always be paramount. I flew with an old RAF instructor once. He was paranoid about lookout. we were in a low wing, on every roll to wings level he would look and say "check the high wing", for any traffic which may have been hidden by the high wing. 

 

 

 

As this has  been questioned, yes I agree looking out through a clear roof panel in the circuit might not be great for student pilots. Yes, for most circuit turns you may not have enough bank on, to make a glance through the roof panel worth it. But in the Gazelle, the height of the roof make it rather easy to look out. It's more like just an extension of the horizon across the instrument panel across to looking through the roof panel. This I normally do in a turn out in the area. Also the clear roof makes looking for circuit traffic easier (high wing) when joining overhead, or when rocking wings looking for traffic.

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, F10 said:

Can you confirm, with just Sky Echo, an ADSB equipped aircraft will see you...but you won't see them?

To me a good lookout will always be paramount.

I flew with an old RAF instructor once. He was paranoid about lookout ...

Negative, re that SkyEcho question, F10. 

Heaps of discussion/information on the topic here on the forum.

But, yeah, I reckon your old RAF mate was damn right to be paranoid. 

Heck, anyone who goes out of their way to get a SkyEcho is paranoid too.

(Especially the ones who've learned not to fully trust their lying, limited eyes. )

 

 

 

Edited October 30 by Garfly

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

Inexperienced pilots shouldn't be looking through the roof in a turn and anyone else should be very wary dong it too. Getting it wrong in turns in the circuit is common and often with disastrous results.. Nev

What would be the percentage between fatalities through loss of control in circuit turns vs collisions in the circuit area?

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, F10 said:

Can you confirm, with just Sky Echo, an ADSB equipped aircraft will see you...but you won't see them? 

Further to the above, F10, maybe I missed the drift of your question.

By "just" Sky Echo, did you mean without it even being paired to an iPad (or similar)?

In that case, the answer to your question would be yes, as long as the other aircraft had IN as well as OUT (and was set to show "conspicuity" type targets).

But pretty much everyone who uses a SkyEcho2 links it to an EFB (which they likely have anyway) so that they can "lookout" for all the ADSB traffic within Cooee. Nowadays, of course, all IFR aircraft show on screen plus an ever growing percentage of the rest. 

The more the merrier, and safer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 30 by Garfly

[kgwilson]

Most GA ADSB equipped aircraft have ADSB Out only as that is the only mandatory requirement and the cost to install ADSB IN is very high. Plenty of GA jockeys around our aerodrome have installed a SE2 with ADSB Out disabled. Again this is required to prevent ghosting but it is the simplest and least expensive way of getting ADSB information in the cockpit via a linked EFIS like Oz Runways, Avplan, Enroute FP etc running on a phone or tablet & connected via WiFi.

[Mike Gearon]

On 28/10/2024 at 12:12 PM, F10 said:

I think ADSB hints at treating the symptom, not the cause. As I said, East and West Sale work fine with everyone within 20 miles on 118.3, yes traffic is light, but then the use of reporting points and traffic corridors, getting traffic at least streamed in the same direction, is another way to skin this cat. Also, being forced by law to install over $5000 of ADSB in my aircraft, will result in a “For Sale” sign hanging from the prop. How much is a life worth…well yes, no argument…..Still has the for sale sign up.

That’s reasonable if say it’s a BRS and you’re making a purchase for own risk management. We are talking about shared airspace here and risk minimisation for everyone.

 

That being said I guess there’s a 5k factor in owning a 20k aircraft. That’d be understandable and hang the sign up.

 

But…. There’s the sky echo. 1k or less is very cheap insurance and helps everyone see and avoid.

[Bosi72]

..and not only the aircraft insurance, but personal insurance as well. Mike is probably surprised to see TNV transmitting Adsb 🙂, but this is my personal Skyecho which I bring whenever flying in an non-Adsb aircraft.