Flightaware

[Roscoe]

Would appreciate comments on this issue…

My flights have always shown up on flightaware in the past, but last sat 26th, nothing after an hours flight.

Skyecho was definately turned on, and Trig ModeS txp also on.

ADSB exchange recorded flight.

A friend flying at same time in same area showed up on flightaware as usual.

Any thoughts?

 

[Bosi72]

FlightAware is the 3rd party ADSB data provider, same as FlightRadar24, same as AdsbExchange. There are others as well, but not as big as those 3.

 

Both FlightAware and FlightRadar24 are filtering, extrapolating, massaging the data.

 

However, according to https://www.adsbexchange.com/faq/  (see the key paragraphs below) they are not filtering any of data... until they do:)

 

 

 

 

.....

Q: How is ADS-B Exchange different than “other” flight tracking sites?

A: ADS-B Exchange operates a bit differently from other flight tracking sites. As a group of aviation enthusiasts, our primary goal is to answer the question of “what’s up there” rather than “is grandma’s flight on-time”.

• You’ll never see an aircraft censored or “blocked” from our site. If one of our feeders is receiving it, the data will be there. This includes military, and other aircraft that attempt to be “unlisted”. Hint: to see some of the planes not shown by other sites, from the map page, right-hand column, Filters -> LADD -> Filter. This primarily applies to US registered aircraft.
• We don’t “estimate” or “interpolate” positions. Every time you see an aircraft move on ADS-B Exchange it is based on actual data received and not an estimate of where the aircraft “should” be. Look at the unnatural movement of aircraft on some of the other sites – you’ll see what we mean. If we are receiving the data, we’ll update positions as often as once per second… with _real_ data.  (2x per second via the Enterprise API).

Q: Is there any way to get my flight/aircraft removed from your website?

A: No, ADS-B Exchange does not accept owner and operator requests to filter flights, aircraft, or fleets. ADS-B Exchange displays unmanipulated flight activity and information of all aircraft that broadcast ADS-B or Mode S.

Operators and owners looking to limit the display of their flight activity may apply to the FAA’s Privacy ICAO Aircraft Address (PIA) program, which will assign aircraft temporary ICAO aircraft addresses that will display on ADS-B Exchange instead of the permanently assigned address. Operators of aircraft flying sensitive government missions should coordinate with the FAA per FAA 14 CFR Section 91.225(f).

Q: Isn’t this a security risk?

A: No. If aircraft do not want to be seen, (such as military or law enforcement aircraft on a mission) they can always turn their transponders “off”, or over to “Mode C”. The position data shown by ADS-B Exchange is available to anyone who can spend $50 on Amazon and put the parts together. It’s not secret. Air Traffic Control voice comms are not encrypted either, and contain similar (or more) information.

........

Edited October 30 by Bosi72

[kgwilson]

The only reason I can think of is that there was a network outage with Flightaware or there were no ground receiving stations withing range which is highly unlikely. Also if the unit was shielded preventing transmission, again highly unlikely. If the SE2 battery was low is also another possibility but then the battery light would be yellow (under 66%) or red when under 33% charge.

 

I presume you were seeing other ADSB Out equipped aircraft at the time and that you know the difference between ADSB in data and OZ runways in data.

[Roscoe]

35 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

The only reason I can think of is that there was a network outage with Flightaware or there were no ground receiving stations withing range which is highly unlikely. Also if the unit was shielded preventing transmission, again highly unlikely. If the SE2 battery was low is also another possibility but then the battery light would be yellow (under 66%) or red when under 33% charge.

 

I presume you were seeing other ADSB Out equipped aircraft at the time and that you know the difference between ADSB in data and OZ runways in data.

Thanks again Kev

SE battery was full, cant recall if i noticed other targets.

I run Avplan.

Will be flying shortly so will check again

[coljones]

On 31/10/2024 at 9:38 AM, Roscoe said:

Thanks again Kev

SE battery was full, cant recall if i noticed other targets.

I run Avplan.

Will be flying shortly so will check again

You also need connectivity to mobile network data in order to receive traffic data from OzRunways, AvPlan, FlightAware, FlightRadar24, AdsbExchange et al.  If you don't have a mobile connection or it is out of range you won't get any traffic data seen by these services.  ADSB-in is independent of the phone network and only depends on other traffic transmitting ADSB-Out.  ADSB-In wont pick up transponders.

[IBob]

31 minutes ago, IanR said:

I use a PingUSB - it does use USB for power only and connects to ipad via Wifi. It would not be suitable if you dont have a sim in the ipad and expect to use Wifi to connect to phone hotspot. I love it but sometimes its a little sensitive to position in the aircraft relative to the ipad. We flew about 12 hours on a trip last weekend with no issues.

Moving this over here to try and get away from the thread drift.
I use a Ping and had similar position issues relative to my tablet, ended up moving the Ping to the brow of the windshield. Also mounted it properly rather than relying on suckering it to the screen. Works fine now.

[Roscoe]

Just getting back to my orginal issue of flightaware not recording my flight last saturday, where does flightaware get its info from?

Skyecho?

Transponder?

 

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, coljones said:

You also need connectivity to mobile network data in order to receive traffic data from OzRunways, AvPlan, FlightAware, FlightRadar24, AdsbExchange et al.  If you don't have a mobile connection or it is out of range you won't get any traffic data seen by these services.  ADSB-in is independent of the phone network and only depends on other traffic transmitting ADSB-Out.  ADSB-In wont pick up transponders.

This leads to something I have been saying on and off for a while. When traffic is selected, and it stops (eg lose service etc) it needs to so on the display clearly.  Even a large x that does not hamper the display information.  On occasions my traffic stops receiving and I think the sky around in clear.  I've had GPS units where when lat and long is out an x displays in the window.  Same would be nice on ozrunways with an x through the traffic box top right of screen.

[kgwilson]

3 hours ago, Roscoe said:

Just getting back to my orginal issue of flightaware not recording my flight last saturday, where does flightaware get its info from?

Skyecho?

Transponder?

 

ADSB data is transmitted from your ADSB Out device at 1090 MHz and is picked up by other aircraft with ADSB In as well as ground stations which range from government run organisations or contractors like Air Services to Joe Blogs with a  Raspberry Pi 1090 MHz receiver & uploaded to the WWW & picked up by 3rd party organisations like FlightAware, Flight radar 24 & ADSB Exchange. The data captured by these businesses is broadcast on the Web in almost real time overlaid on a map providing the precise location of the aircraft at 1 second intervals. The SE2 also has a secondary receiver at 978MHz (ADSB In) which includes traffic information and weather information (if available). Not in Australia though.

 

Transponders have nothing to do with it unless they are Mode S transponders with extended squitter and are ADSB enabled so have to include the ADSB hardware,  a GPS & external antenna. These have much greater range due to their higher transmitter power but it comes at a 5-6k cost.

[Roscoe]

1 hour ago, kgwilson said:

ADSB data is transmitted from your ADSB Out device at 1090 MHz and is picked up by other aircraft with ADSB In as well as ground stations which range from government run organisations or contractors like Air Services to Joe Blogs with a  Raspberry Pi 1090 MHz receiver & uploaded to the WWW & picked up by 3rd party organisations like FlightAware, Flight radar 24 & ADSB Exchange. The data captured by these businesses is broadcast on the Web in almost real time overlaid on a map providing the precise location of the aircraft at 1 second intervals. The SE2 also has a secondary receiver at 978MHz (ADSB In) which includes traffic information and weather information (if available). Not in Australia though.

 

Transponders have nothing to do with it unless they are Mode S transponders with extended squitter and are ADSB enabled so have to include the ADSB hardware,  a GPS & external antenna. These have much greater range due to their higher transmitter power but it comes at a 5-6k cost.

Ok thanks Kevin

My TRIG ModeS Txp not equipped as you describe. I only have a Garmin Aera500 portable GPS in the panel.

Just thinking that my SE device, even though switched on, may not have had a GPS fix during the flight.

[IBob]

10 hours ago, kgwilson said:

ADSB data is transmitted from your ADSB Out device at 1090 MHz and is picked up by other aircraft with ADSB In as well as ground stations which range from government run organisations or contractors like Air Services to Joe Blogs with a  Raspberry Pi 1090 MHz receiver & uploaded to the WWW & picked up by 3rd party organisations like FlightAware, Flight radar 24 & ADSB Exchange. The data captured by these businesses is broadcast on the Web in almost real time............

I'm pretty sure someone commented here a while back on the latency or delay in some of these data sources.

As an example: where 90kts is about 150ft/sec, a 10sec delay will result in a 1500ft error in position reporting.
120kts and a delay of 30sec and the error is 6000ft, or 1 nautical mile.

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, IBob said:

I'm pretty sure someone commented here a while back on the latency or delay in some of these data sources.

As an example: where 90kts is about 150ft/sec, a 10sec delay will result in a 1500ft error in position reporting.
120kts and a delay of 30sec and the error is 6000ft, or 1 nautical mile.

Being an electronic neophyte, I shouldn't comment however even I understand that the signals generated and appearing, on whatever electronic device you have, are not in real time. 

 

Those who rely on these sorts of systems for separation, may get into real trouble (The Oaks incident?).

 

In small VFR aircraft, you can't beat the radio for situational  awareness, followed by the dodgy MK1 eyeball.

 

In my mind, there is a real danger that pilots will get sucked in by the computer screen ,not communicate & look outside the cockpit.

[kgwilson]

ADSB aircraft to aircraft is as close as you can get to real time. Latency depends upon the transmitter, receiver & display device processing times. The maximum calculated latency is 0.6 seconds according to information I have read. Latency when relying on ground systems has multiple paths and delays so it is impossible to calculate but can be much longer.

 

A good example of this is a friend of mine was flying his Mooney M20 in the Outback Air race last year. He had a Mode S transponder & ADSB Out but not In & was relying on traffic information from Avplan. He noticed an aircraft on a converging path & made a call to Brisbane Centre. Their response was don't worry he's already gone past you.

[Neil_S]

12 hours ago, Roscoe said:

Ok thanks Kevin

My TRIG ModeS Txp not equipped as you describe. I only have a Garmin Aera500 portable GPS in the panel.

Just thinking that my SE device, even though switched on, may not have had a GPS fix during the flight.

Hi Roscoe,

 

Your Skyecho has 3 lights on it, the one on the right is the one indicating GPS fix. If you had GPS fix issues this should have shown something other than green, eg amber if poor (2D), or red if no satellites fixed. 

 

Cheers,

Neil

[Roscoe]

1 minute ago, Neil_S said:

Hi Roscoe,

 

Your Skyecho has 3 lights on it, the one on the right is the one indicating GPS fix. If you had GPS fix issues this should have shown something other than green, eg amber if poor (2D), or red if no satellites fixed. 

 

Cheers,

Neil

Yep am aware of that.

Seems unusual that on a one hour flt down the coast to Wollongong there was no GPS fix.

Flying again soon so will check it regularly

[BurnieM]

21 hours ago, Blueadventures said:

This leads to something I have been saying on and off for a while. When traffic is selected, and it stops (eg lose service etc) it needs to so on the display clearly.  Even a large x that does not hamper the display information.  On occasions my traffic stops receiving and I think the sky around in clear.  I've had GPS units where when lat and long is out an x displays in the window.  Same would be nice on ozrunways with an x through the traffic box top right of screen.

I have Garmin Pilot.

If you have traffic on then an aerial box in the top left corner of the screen is displayed.

If no information is received the box has a red 'X'.

 

I am currently using it with 'AvTraffic' via phone hotspot to the internet.

 

[kgwilson]

There are 2 things that may not be communicating. One is that the ADSB unit is no longer detecting traffic (& possibly not broadcasting either) and the other is that the WiFi between the ADSB unit and your EFIS system has failed. If it is the latter you are likely to get a message saying so. In En Route Flight Planning it will say "Traffic receiver not connected" & there is a red aircraft symbol at the bottom left of the screen & pressing that gives various options to connect, reconnect or configure data connections. If the ADSB unit is not receiving or transmitting data but still connected via WiFi your EFIS screen will just be devoid of any traffic data.