Zonsen Aero Engines - Rapture Aviation (Adelaide)

[Rapture]

17 hours ago, facthunter said:

I've been very pro (for the record). Perhaps they can supply the Engine Mount rubbers?   Nev

Thanks Nev. I have been advised by the Zonsen rep previously that their parts will fit the equivalent Rotax engine so they can be considered an aftermarket part for the Rotax engine. I will get written confirmation from Zonsen on this matter.  I’ll post their response once I have it.  If the information is correct and you need any parts such as rubbers, please send a message through the contact form on our website listing the Rotax part numbers and we will seek the costing and delivery time for the equivalent Rotax part.

[Rapture]

Guys, I’d also beg you to refrain from off-topic discussions on this thread.  I’m hoping that it can build to a useful and informative thread where folks can come to learn about these engines and our aircraft where the information, either good or bad can be found without having to troll through irrelevant comments.

Thanks.

[skippydiesel]

Do Zongshen supply a factory air box for the 100 hp range?

 

If so, what price in Au?

[facthunter]

Why don't you ask the Australian Rep?  Nev

[Rapture]

5 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Why don't you ask the Australian Rep?  Nev

Rapture Aviation (me and my partner) is the Australian dealer for Zonsen.  I think Skippy is addressing his enquiry to me.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Rapture

[Rapture]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Do Zongshen supply a factory air box for the 100 hp range?

 

If so, what price in Au?

We are currently obtaining a full spare parts list with prices from Zonsen.  I’ll find out and PM you.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Rapture

[bexrbetter]

On 07/11/2024 at 8:48 PM, onetrack said:

 

 Chinese engine that is essentially an illegal copy of a European product.

 

 

I tell you what Mate, owning a Chinese Law Firm please introduce the client suffering from 'loss of income' due to the "illegal copy", and I'll pay you a handsome introduction fee after the case is won and royalties recovered.  But since you're full of nonsense, that's not going to happen, and yes, you most certainly can sue the azz off IPR thieves here, though the information you have gained at that amazing source of information, the lunchroom table at work, probably leads you to not believing that .....

 

 

One of the reasons I don't post much any more is the bigotry found anytime "China" is mentioned, from people who's experience is buying cheap rubbish that's sourced by an Australian, specced by an Australian, sold in an Australian owned shop by an Australian seeking maximum profit, and purchased by an Australian with deep pockets and very short arms, but when it breaks, it's "China's fault!".

The irony is that Chinese people in China won't buy that rubbish, but facts don't seem to matter much to people who like to pretend they know something about China.

Living here in China for 20 years (and not far from Zongshen), one thing I know, China can make engines, especially small engines. You guys have no idea what I witness daily with overloaded 1000cc mini vans and utes having the life revved out of them nonstop keeping up with traffic and up hills, also thousands of undergeared 200cc 3 wheel utility motorbikes coming past flat out at 40kmh with a million revs screaming their heads off.

Then there's the motorcycles, usually 150cc which Zongsen is one of the biggest manufacturers in the world of, same story, 40 to 50 kmh screaming their guts out by riders with zero mechanical sympathy.

After 20 years here, I know where China's product's faults lay, and engines are certainly not included in that list, and they build engines that are the equal to any engine in the world, and in some cases, factually proven to be better.

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Well, it looks like the Chinese apologist is back. I can show you any number of Chinese "quality" products here that are basically landfill after a short period of time. And when you say "specced" by Australians, does that mean the Australian purchasers get to control the quality of the material going into the end product? I think not, and "quality fade" is a uniquely Chinese product description - produced by a Western manager who worked in Chinese manufacturing for 20 years.

Profit without regard to quality drives all Chinese operations, and not for nothing is the accent regularly on Chinese sayings, that always include the words, "gold" and "treasure".

[Admin]

Please take any arguments off line

[facthunter]

Well, I found out Boeings must be made in China.  Nev

[Deano747]

23 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Well, I found out Boeings must be made in China.  Nev

Worse - hillbilly country USofA

[facthunter]

"Greed Above All" Inc.  The NEW American WAY.  Capitalism with a Monopoly "unfettered". What could go wrong?  Nev

[Rapture]

REQUEST TO THREAD PARTICIPANTS!

 

Could we please keep this thread on topic?  The quality of Chinese products in general, whether good or bad bear no relationship to the quality of Zonsen engines.  Please could we have no further mention about Chinese products in general.  This thread is specifically about the Zonsen Aero engines.  If you have first hand knowledge about these engines then please contribute.  If you have a direct statement from someone that has first hand knowledge or experience with these engines then please contribute.  Please, no politics and no bashing of other thread participants. If someone is out of order, I will ask the Admins to address it, if they haven’t already picked it up.

I have counted over 30 posts in this thread that have no relevance to Zonsen engines. As I have said before, we want to make this thread one where folks can go to find useful information. Off topic chats are not useful and are an unwanted distraction.

Let’s try and build this thread as a receptacle for direct knowledge about the Zonsen Aero engines. Even as the distributor, I don’t care whether the feedback is good or bad about the engines, a lot can be learned and addressed from folks problems with a product or product support that can go towards addressing the issues to make a better product, with better product support.

 

SO PLEASE, CAN WE STOP WITH THE OFF TOPIC DISCUSSIONS AND IRRELEVANT POSTS?

 

Thanks,

 

Dave

Edited November 25, 2024 by Rapture

[Rapture]

We have our first engine about to be shipped from the factory and delivery is anticipated late December/early January.

If anyone is in the market for a new Rotax 912UL or 912ULS and fancies additional hp, this 109hp Zonsen CA510 engine will be available for sale.  The final price will be advised once it has been delivered to our facility in Adelaide, but you could expect a saving over the lower powered 912ULS.

If you might be interested in this engine, please pm me or make an enquiry through Rapture's website enquiry form.  If you have a neat aircraft that would be a good showcase for the engine, we will consider sweetening the deal if you display your aircraft in the Rapture display at Ausfly 2025 (14/15 March at Wentworth) and possibly also at Avalon 2025 (25-30 March).

If a customer doesn't take it, it will be going straight into one of our company aircraft that we can demonstrate.

Cheers,

Dave

[Rapture]

The ship with our 110hp CA510 has arrived in Adelaide and we’ve been told to expect to collect our engine late this week or early next week.  I’ll post pics when I can but they might be delayed due to my need to travel for a week.

We (Rapture) will have a small booth at AusFly with the engine one display.  Please swing past and say G’day and check it out.  If you want to buy it, you can take it home from the show with you 😜 

[BrendAn]

i hate to say it because i want to see these engines succeed but only 4k cheaper than a rotax who is going to buy them.

i didn't realise they would be so expensive.

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

i hate to say it because i want to see these engines succeed but only 4k cheaper than a rotax who is going to buy them.

i didn't realise they would be so expensive.

That 4k would buy me some decent accessories. Mine is set for inspection on Thursday and if all goes well there are a few things I'd like autopilot and ADSB amongst other things.

[Rapture]

10 hours ago, BrendAn said:

i hate to say it because i want to see these engines succeed but only 4k cheaper than a rotax who is going to buy them.

i didn't realise they would be so expensive.

We raised this issue with Zonsen, particularly as it relates to trying to break into a market with a new and unproven engine, combined with a new manufacturer who has yet to establish a good reputation for product quality and product support.  Unfortunately, the cost is what it is. What the manufacturer needs to do is to build the reputation and the brand so that the products and product support are at least equal to or preferably exceed that of Rotax, then the $4000 price differential will be a point of difference in their favour.

Edited Monday at 08:53 PM by Rapture

[BurnieM]

But first the manufacturer needs to provide a volume of 'in use' engines in Australia, lets say 10 x 912ULS equivalents.

One here and one there is going to take a very long time to build a reputation.

I would have expected the manufacturer, not distributor, would have born a lot of this cost.

 

For $4K more I would buy a Rotax.

 

Edited Monday at 10:02 PM by BurnieM

[Rapture]

5 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

But first the manufacturer needs to provide a volume of 'in use' engines in Australia, lets say 10 x 912ULS equivalents.

One here and one there is going to take a very long time to build a reputation.

I would have expected the manufacturer, not distributor, would have born a lot of this cost.

 

Believe me, I hear you. The aero division of Zonsen have been very good to deal with, but I think they are still coming to grips with Western mentality and mindset.  Building a reputation needs to come from the manufacturer and there are clear metrics around what elements of a business and their product will positively enhance a reputation, particularly in the aviation sector.  A demonstrated history of a reliable, safe and well supported product is critical, not just on a sample of one, but on a sample of many and over a sustained period.  Distributors have the ability to support the initiatives of the manufacturers to raise the level of credibility and trust in a product, but ultimately, responsibility rests with the manufacturer to enhance their own profile.

[BurnieM]

I do not think this is about the 'Western mindset'.

This is about the rest of the world seeing billions of billions of dollars worth of low quality products coming out of China for the last 50 years.

 

We know China can produce high quality products but we cannot identify them. 

Chinese brands changing names is another problem.

 

We are asking for Zonsen to prove their product is not low quality and we need this data to come from non-Chinese sources.

10 x 912ULS equivalents flying in Australia would seem to me to be the fastest (and cheapest) way to do this.

 

Does Zonsen read this forum ?

 

[onetrack]

The words "product quality and product support" are not compatible with Chinese-built products. The Chinese totally fail to understand Western countries mindset, as regards the requirements for build quality, traceable manufacturing points, manuals that are well written in accurate English, parts supply that is guaranteed, and adequate factory backing.

The Chinese fail to understand the principles behind the Western "name brand and image", whereby a manufacturer establishes their name, their company image, and their logo, firmly in buyers minds and backs it with complete customer support.

 

The Chinese are happy to indulge in regular name and brand changes, manufacturing being done in numerous unrelated factories, that all have different aims, and levels of build quality. 

There is a vast reliance on ISO 9002 amongst the Chinese manufacturers as gold recognition some kind of Western build quality standard. Not a lot of people understand that ISO 9002 (since replaced by ISO 9001:2015) still doesn't guarantee Western build quality - the standard merely ensures there's a written paper trail covering manufacturing processes. ISO standards do not guarantee that employees have the necessary skills and training to carry out their technically skilled jobs.

 

We all know that the Chinese happily reposition peasants, from fields into factories as a standard process for continued employment or compensation for their agricultural land being taken for manufacturing.

We know that many of these peasants have little by way of manufacturing training and skills, they're used for "simple assembly tasks" - but "simple assembly tasks" in factories require skills and mechanical insight, that many Chinese peasants lack.

Until Chinese industry comes to terms with Western processes and training skills levels, and a complete understanding of what Western buyers basic needs are, as regards durability and complete customer support, they will always come second in the build quality and reliability stakes.

[BurnieM]

A bit harsh. I think many Chinese industries have moved on from a lot of poor practises but most are still not US/Europe equivalent in their manufacturing processes.

Some parts of Chinese industry will be further, perhaps much further, ahead in their processes but again we cannot identify them.

 

Changes in branding and Chinese business not understanding that reputation is frequently tied to a name in Western societies is a big oversight.

 

ISO processes, even in Australia, are all about paper work and for some time there has been a disconnnect between the standards and manufacturing quality.

 

Edited Monday at 11:22 PM by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

I am old enough to remember the contempt the west had for Japanese products -

 

All the Chinese product, problems/issues , real or perceived, you have winged about today, will be overcome. They have the science, skills and drive to become the World leader - get used to the idea.😈

[BurnieM]

8 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I am old enough to remember the contempt the west had for Japanese products -

 

All the Chinese product, problems/issues , real or perceived, you have winged about today, will be overcome. They have the science, skills and drive to become the World leader - get used to the idea.😈

 

Agree, but we are talking about introducing a new Chinese product into the Australian market now.

 

Presumably the Australian distributor wants to make a profit before they die (joke) and the manufacturers approach right now makes this unlikely.

 

Edited Monday at 11:26 PM by BurnieM