Zonsen Aero Engines - Rapture Aviation (Adelaide)

[mkennard]

Also if it's not certified doesn't mean you can't fly over built up areas?

[BrendAn]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

 A V twin has better torsional momentum charactistics. There is a BEST angle of the V..   Nev

not everyone wants a v twin.  boxers have a nice low profile for applications like xairs and other high mounted engines.

[facthunter]

Most are not aware of the advantages of a V twin over a boxer twin. The Jabiru twin was not a success because of the exaggerated offset of the opposing cylinders that results from having a mainbearing for each throw of the crankshaft.  Nev

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

Most are not aware of the advantages of a V twin over a boxer twin. The Jabiru twin was not a success because of the exaggerated offset of the opposing cylinders that results from having a mainbearing for each throw of the crankshaft.  Nev

did they make a twin

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Most are not aware of the advantages of a V twin over a boxer twin. The Jabiru twin was not a success because of the exaggerated offset of the opposing cylinders that results from having a mainbearing for each throw of the crankshaft.  Nev

i don't think bmw would agree with you.

[facthunter]

I am reliable informed YES but it was NEVER put in production because of the vibration..   Nev

[BrendAn]

Just now, facthunter said:

I am reliable informed YES but it was NEVER put in production because of the vibration..   Nev

interesting.  

[BrendAn]

the biggest hurdle i see for the zonshen in australia is how small our market is. i guess if raptures main reason for importing is to power their own planes it makes sense. any other sales will be a bonus.

[facthunter]

BMW don't have excessive cylinder Offset. . The effect I described is well known with engine designers. 3 cyls and narrow V 6's are not uncommon. Many fours in line have curious firing sequences for the same reason and there's plenty of 5 cylinder engines. Many flat four designs have  crankshaft breakages . Some People who raced the aircooled VW's changed the crank at 6 hours.  Nev

[facthunter]

As far as the Factory is concerned the total Market is the main concern. Aero engines will only EVER be a relatively LOW volume thing. That's the problem with ALL  of them.  and why so many do not survive. I wish them ALL good luck and it's good for us that any of them attempt it..  Nev

[Rapture]

3 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

What Zonsen says is irrelevant. It would be a good idea to check the legality for different classes of RAAus an aircraft, private, flying school, LSA, experimental etc with RAAus. It is a question potential customers will be asking you.

For clarity and I thought it was clear in my statement, Zonsen confirmed that the engine would physically fit on the equivalent Rotax engine mounts. I made no reference to the legality of replacing a Rotax with a Zonsen.  The aircraft owner will need to ascertain that element of a potential engine swap/replacement/installation. That said, we will have no problem expressing an opinion about whether the  Zonsen can be legally installed in the customers experimental/LSA/95.55 etc.  That is a fairly straightforward question with back and white answers thanks to the regulatory framework.

[F10]

This is an interesting development. If anything, hopefully this will result in a price drop by Rotax....competition was never a bad thing for consumers. There is a bloke in Canada using one of these in a Zenith 701 I think. A clip of this has been posted I earlier? He seems pretty happy with it. My experience with Chinese engineering is as follows: I bought a CFMoto 150cc commuter bike as it was far better specced than the Honda CB125. It was INSANELY cheap, so I thought I would give it a go. It was so cheap, I thought minor a loss if it packs in. 8 years later and 35 000Kms later, it still looks almost brand new and the only problem was the battery was not powerful enough. after replacing two batteries, I replaced the battery, after a bit of butchery of the battery holder, with a slightly larger battery, and it has been going like a train ever since. Then the wife's KIA Rio, was getting well past it's sell by date. After test driving them  them to be just as well built and the same to drive as SUV's that cost around $8000 more...I took a punt, and bought her a Haval H2 LUX. 60 000 Km's later and 6 years down the road, it still does look brand new and it's the most comfortable car we've ever owned. Any long trip and we take the Haval. CFMoto has become one of the leading motorcycle manufacturers in the world, being virtually unknown when I bought mu little commute scoot. Needless to say, Haval and MG have grown considerably, in the Australian market.

 

Royal Enfield is another example. Built in India and yes, originally a crude re-make of a 1950's Royal Enfield 500 Bullet, in the late 1990's, they are now a world premier motorcycle manufacturer, offering a range of very engaging motorcycles that are well built and at VERY AFFORDABLE PRICES....(low prices for good stuff...being a killer marketing strategy!). 

 

I expect the ZONSEN will do the same. I don't quite get this certification thing. Yes, a certification I guess, tells you you can expect a high level of quality and performance, but certified engines also fail. Most homebuilt aircraft are listed as experimental. I have every confidence this ZONSEN engine will prove itself and the greatly reduced cost will always be very attractive.   

[BrendAn]

6 hours ago, F10 said:

This is an interesting development. If anything, hopefully this will result in a price drop by Rotax....competition was never a bad thing for consumers. There is a bloke in Canada using one of these in a Zenith 701 I think. A clip of this has been posted I earlier? He seems pretty happy with it. My experience with Chinese engineering is as follows: I bought a CFMoto 150cc commuter bike as it was far better specced than the Honda CB125. It was INSANELY cheap, so I thought I would give it a go. It was so cheap, I thought minor a loss if it packs in. 8 years later and 35 000Kms later, it still looks almost brand new and the only problem was the battery was not powerful enough. after replacing two batteries, I replaced the battery, after a bit of butchery of the battery holder, with a slightly larger battery, and it has been going like a train ever since. Then the wife's KIA Rio, was getting well past it's sell by date. After test driving them  them to be just as well built and the same to drive as SUV's that cost around $8000 more...I took a punt, and bought her a Haval H2 LUX. 60 000 Km's later and 6 years down the road, it still does look brand new and it's the most comfortable car we've ever owned. Any long trip and we take the Haval. CFMoto has become one of the leading motorcycle manufacturers in the world, being virtually unknown when I bought mu little commute scoot. Needless to say, Haval and MG have grown considerably, in the Australian market.

 

Royal Enfield is another example. Built in India and yes, originally a crude re-make of a 1950's Royal Enfield 500 Bullet, in the late 1990's, they are now a world premier motorcycle manufacturer, offering a range of very engaging motorcycles that are well built and at VERY AFFORDABLE PRICES....(low prices for good stuff...being a killer marketing strategy!). 

 

I expect the ZONSEN will do the same. I don't quite get this certification thing. Yes, a certification I guess, tells you you can expect a high level of quality and performance, but certified engines also fail. Most homebuilt aircraft are listed as experimental. I have every confidence this ZONSEN engine will prove itself and the greatly reduced cost will always be very attractive.   

We bought a new haval jolion and it was horrible. Couldn't get rid of it quick enough. Only good thing was the dealer bought it back for full price at 8000 km because of the covid waiting list for new cars.

[F10]

Fine! You can never please everybody. I have had nothing but good and satisfactory service, from the Haval and the CFMoto bike. I don’t like Jack Daniels burbon. You probably do. I far prefer a single malt whiskey.

[Moneybox]

6 hours ago, F10 said:

This is an interesting development. If anything, hopefully this will result in a price drop by Rotax....competition was never a bad thing for consumers. There is a bloke in Canada using one of these in a Zenith 701 I think. A clip of this has been posted I earlier? He seems pretty happy with it. My experience with Chinese engineering is as follows: I bought a CFMoto 150cc commuter bike as it was far better specced than the Honda CB125. It was INSANELY cheap, so I thought I would give it a go. It was so cheap, I thought minor a loss if it packs in. 8 years later and 35 000Kms later, it still looks almost brand new and the only problem was the battery was not powerful enough. after replacing two batteries, I replaced the battery, after a bit of butchery of the battery holder, with a slightly larger battery, and it has been going like a train ever since. Then the wife's KIA Rio, was getting well past it's sell by date. After test driving them  them to be just as well built and the same to drive as SUV's that cost around $8000 more...I took a punt, and bought her a Haval H2 LUX. 60 000 Km's later and 6 years down the road, it still does look brand new and it's the most comfortable car we've ever owned. Any long trip and we take the Haval. CFMoto has become one of the leading motorcycle manufacturers in the world, being virtually unknown when I bought mu little commute scoot. Needless to say, Haval and MG have grown considerably, in the Australian market.

 

Royal Enfield is another example. Built in India and yes, originally a crude re-make of a 1950's Royal Enfield 500 Bullet, in the late 1990's, they are now a world premier motorcycle manufacturer, offering a range of very engaging motorcycles that are well built and at VERY AFFORDABLE PRICES....(low prices for good stuff...being a killer marketing strategy!). 

 

I expect the ZONSEN will do the same. I don't quite get this certification thing. Yes, a certification I guess, tells you you can expect a high level of quality and performance, but certified engines also fail. Most homebuilt aircraft are listed as experimental. I have every confidence this ZONSEN engine will prove itself and the greatly reduced cost will always be very attractive.   

 

The problem is that it's a bit of a hit and miss when you buy from these developing countries. I remember when we first bought stationary engines from Japan, they came with a spare piston and rings, a set of spanners and various other parts. Some of the Chinese stuff is the same, you might get a good model but you could end up with something like the Kia Carnival when it came out. You were very lucky if you got 50,000km before throwing the engine in the bin and because of the reputation they built most of the vehicles ended up scrapped. Compare that to the early Hundai Excel, you couldn't kill them. Hopefully their aircraft engines have been thoroughly tested. The ZONSEN price has pretty much doubled since the first video clip from three years ago so I guess that's a good sign.

[facthunter]

The KIA Carnival's block split in two. There's quite few vehicles out there that are like  hand grenades. The  Wreckers price for an engine  (or transmission) will give the best indication.. I'm not going to name them as I don't like Paying lawyers. One fairly popular Van is included.. Things can be considered good when there's a lot of them out there. Not always so. Some quite expensive models are just ready to cost you a monty IF it's out of MAKERS warrantee. The dealer extended ones often have a "service by US" condition for validity. Nev

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, F10 said:

Fine! You can never please everybody. I have had nothing but good and satisfactory service, from the Haval and the CFMoto bike. I don’t like Jack Daniels burbon. You probably do. I far prefer a single malt whiskey.

Fully agree.  We had the first haval jolion running around sale and looking at the later models they seem to have improved a lot. I didn't like having a cruise control that was unusable and the fuel economy was bad for such a small car .

And the cf moto bikes get excellent reviews.

Edited November 12 by BrendAn

[440032]

On 08/11/2024 at 6:13 PM, BrendAn said:

did they (Jabiru) make a twin

Jabiru did not.  CAMiT did. A one off 1100cc two cyl 40hp special for a particular aircraft/customer. It never flew with that engine and I presume the engine was returned to CAMiT (and never seen again).

I ran it once, it vibrated like a beeeetch.

[T510]

One thing I have noticed with the Chinese auto manufacturers is the rapid improvement in quality.

 

I regularly get hire cars for work and the first of the Chinese MG's where a pretty horrible experience with shocking NVH, build quality and in car controls. 

6 years later and the improvement was impressive, no way would I buy one but they have come a long way in a short time. 

 

 

[Area-51]

19 hours ago, Moneybox said:

 

The problem is that it's a bit of a hit and miss when you buy from these developing countries. I remember when we first bought stationary engines from Japan, they came with a spare piston and rings, a set of spanners and various other parts. Some of the Chinese stuff is the same, you might get a good model but you could end up with something like the Kia Carnival when it came out. You were very lucky if you got 50,000km before throwing the engine in the bin and because of the reputation they built most of the vehicles ended up scrapped. Compare that to the early Hundai Excel, you couldn't kill them. Hopefully their aircraft engines have been thoroughly tested. The ZONSEN price has pretty much doubled since the first video clip from three years ago so I guess that's a good sign.

The Carnival used a HondaV6, so did the MG ZT and Rover; all suffered the same issues of engine failure. At the time Kia had a national recall on 12.5 thousand replacement engines; MG/Rover national recall on inlet manifold assembly replacement due to coolant containment issues leading to engine failure.

 

Many leading OEM auto brands manufacture in china. Many leading OEM electronics brands manufacture in china. Many components used in both industries are manufactured in china.
 

Cirrus Aircraft, owned and manufactured by china...

 

Boeing, Airbus, manufacture in china.

 

Rotax, BMW, Can-am, manufacture in china.

 

Mitsubishi, manufacture in china.

 

Daimler Benz, manufacture in china.

 

Ford, manufacture in china.

 

Toyota, manufacture in china.

 

Chrysler Stellantis, manufacture in china.

 

PSA Citroen, manufacture in china.

 

Harley Davidson, manufacture in china.

 

Textron Cessna, joint venture manufacture in china.

 

Let's give it a chance to prove itself and see if they are as good as the Rotax units being manufacture in the Rotax factory across the road from ZonZen's facility 😃👍

[onetrack]

The big difference with manufacturing in China is whether it's a Western company that has installed Western-trained managers and Western-developed QC programmes to oversee the quality of the end result - or an all-Chinese company that has no Western input and which relies on local people that may be seriously lacking in management skills and QC skills.

 

I've read where approximately 200,000 Chinese, who were all educated in Western institutions and who have acquired Western standards of management skills, engineering skills, and QC skills, are the primary people driving the industrial expansion of China in the last 30 years. The problem is the majority of them are employed by Western companies to manage and operate their factories in China.

Naturally, there are also Japanese and Taiwanese companies who have developed a name and processes for quality products, and these people also operate within China. 

Attention to detail is a hallmark of those manufacturers who produce quality products, and the Chinese themselves have not had a reputation for attention to detail, up until recently.

 

And then there's the problem that the Chinese fail to understand "branding" and corporate "image", as Western, Japanese and Taiwanese companies do.

The common large Western/Japanese/Taiwanese company names you can immediately think of, spend vast amounts of money and effort, and also legal expenditure, in ensuring that their "name" and "brand" are recognised for their high standards and support of their products. They back it up with good customer relationships, good supplies of parts and adequate and competent technical information.

However, Chinese manufacturers are agglomerated into multiple factories and brand names, which leaves customers confused, and who get lost trying to find corporate brand support. It's not helped by the language barrier, and a severe shortage of good English translators within China. 

[Rapture]

There are several good videos that have been put out by the South African distributor that explain the product range and provide some more details about the engines.

 

 

 

 

[Moneybox]

I haven't finished watching these videos but I think they blow the story that these engines are an exact copy of the Rotax. I have no doubt they have been developed from the Rotax but you don't turn out a range of engines like this overnight. It looks to me as though there have been years of development and testing so I'd be confident to purchase their products.

[facthunter]

It's NOT likely to be "better" than the Rotax so must compete on price OR some other advantage.   IF some fault develops in the Rotax line it would also be in the copy as well.. The higher performance models are very complex and the crankshafts can only be done at the factory to much higher toque test figures on the press fits. Breaking head studs must be a concern. There's only 4.  Nev

[kgwilson]

I bought a Chinese made MG4 electric car. The build quality is better than all previous Japanese cars I've owned, the manuals are in perfect British English and it is one of the best handling cars Petrol or Electric you can buy today. It has won 5 Car of the Year awards and numerous other awards as well.

 

One Australian reviewer had test driven all the early Chinese MGs and the verdict was at best they were below average and worst positively woeful.

 

I would hope that the Zonshen are in the quality at affordable price camp. Generally you get what you pay for but in the case of Rotax they are way over priced for what you get. Of course manufacturing volume plays a big part in pricing.