Zonsen Aero Engines - Rapture Aviation (Adelaide)

[onetrack]

You can very quickly find the reputation and standing of Chinese manufactured products in the used equipment market. I deal with vast amounts of industrial equipment, everything from tractors, to forklifts, to gensets, to electric motors, to pumps, to workshop equipment.

 

The Chinese products turn up in auction yards by the truckload - broken down, suffering from catastrophic failures, suffering from bad design, suffering from quality failures, and suffering from a lack of support and parts, that stops them from being rapidly repaired and put back into use.

 

They bring low prices at auction, as against "brand name" Western or Japanese products that are highly sought after by purchasers looking for viable used equipment.

 

Even the Chinese built, "Western brand name" products fail far more quickly than the Western-built products. Chinese-built Cummins engines ventilate blocks fairly regularly with conrods.

Stamford and Le Roy alternators made in China regularly turn up used, with "fried" electrical or electronic components - and often at low hours.

 

It's well known that all the Chinese electronic genset control panels have a reliability rate that makes East German Trabants look like the pinnacle of reliability. The Chinese still have a fair way to go, to establish durability and reliability, in their manufactured products.

[skippydiesel]

BurnieM 

I think there is one thing we can all agree on - the shear intrapreneurial drive of our Asian friends.

Maaate! they will make whatever adjustments are required to get a foot in this door. Hiccups along the way - they will fix them.

Unlike what was the USSR/Russia, which was/is essentially a criminal state, selling shonky goods the West, the Chinese (along with most Asians) are culturally invested in the future/long term.

If they believe that we will be a good customer for their grandchildren - they will adjust &  invest accordingly.😈

[BurnieM]

I think we need to get back to Zonsen; show us what Zonsen reliability and quality control is.

 

How do Zonsen look for and receive feedback from their non-Chinese customers ?

(question for Zonsen and distributor only)

 

[onetrack]

Skippy, let me know when you find a comprehensive service manual, written and illustrated in excellent English, for your Chinese manufactured product - which product has continued to use the same brand name and logo for 30, 40 or 50 years - and maybe then I'll change my mind.

[skippydiesel]

33 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Skippy, let me know when you find a comprehensive service manual, written and illustrated in excellent English, for your Chinese manufactured product - which product has continued to use the same brand name and logo for 30, 40 or 50 years - and maybe then I'll change my mind.

As I said before-  I remember well how Japanese good were viewed - your words/views were likly uttered then.

 

What you say for "today" make be correct but what of "tomorrow"??

 

FYI - I fly an American derived aircraft  - its supplier has a poor customer focus (in my opinion) that likly comes from a parochial Word view - something unlikly to develop in the Chinese (at least for several generations) and something we can not afford, while we continue with our mining/farming mindset &  failure to adequately invest in R&D  😈

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:19 AM by skippydiesel

[danny_galaga]

China is fast becoming like Japan in quality. I think have to remember you get what you pay for. If you go on Temu and buy a two dollar sweater that catches on fire, well....

But if you are buying a quality product, there's no reason it can't be Chinese.

 

The price is a sticking point for now. But we'll see how the coming trade wars effects Rotax prices compared to zhongshen prices. The current bizarre US regime might be a silver lining for high end Chinese products.

[facthunter]

How would that work? Nev

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

The words "product quality and product support" are not compatible with Chinese-built products. The Chinese totally fail to understand Western countries mindset, as regards the requirements for build quality, traceable manufacturing points, manuals that are well written in accurate English, parts supply that is guaranteed, and adequate factory backing.

The Chinese fail to understand the principles behind the Western "name brand and image", whereby a manufacturer establishes their name, their company image, and their logo, firmly in buyers minds and backs it with complete customer support.

 

The Chinese are happy to indulge in regular name and brand changes, manufacturing being done in numerous unrelated factories, that all have different aims, and levels of build quality. 

There is a vast reliance on ISO 9002 amongst the Chinese manufacturers as gold recognition some kind of Western build quality standard. Not a lot of people understand that ISO 9002 (since replaced by ISO 9001:2015) still doesn't guarantee Western build quality - the standard merely ensures there's a written paper trail covering manufacturing processes. ISO standards do not guarantee that employees have the necessary skills and training to carry out their technically skilled jobs.

 

We all know that the Chinese happily reposition peasants, from fields into factories as a standard process for continued employment or compensation for their agricultural land being taken for manufacturing.

We know that many of these peasants have little by way of manufacturing training and skills, they're used for "simple assembly tasks" - but "simple assembly tasks" in factories require skills and mechanical insight, that many Chinese peasants lack.

Until Chinese industry comes to terms with Western processes and training skills levels, and a complete understanding of what Western buyers basic needs are, as regards durability and complete customer support, they will always come second in the build quality and reliability stakes.

i think you may have been right in  the past but there are quality products coming from china now.  these zonshen engines have great reviews when you can find them.  

[BrendAn]

when rotax introduced the 912ul they were an unknown engine. they tried to sell them to john williams to fit in the titan tornados, 

he refused saying the 582 was proven and that is what he was fitting to factory builds. in the end rotax gave him a 912 and said try it. if you like it buy it, if you don't send it back.  after the trial he was sold on the 912.  maybe zonshen could do something similar as burnie suggested.

[Moneybox]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

when rotax introduced the 912ul they were an unknown engine. they tried to sell them to john williams to fit in the titan tornados, 

he refused saying the 582 was proven and that is what he was fitting to factory builds. in the end rotax gave him a 912 and said try it. if you like it buy it, if you don't send it back.  after the trial he was sold on the 912.  maybe zonshen could do something similar as burnie suggested.

✋ I'll happily be the guinea pig.

[facthunter]

What a generous offer.  Nev

[Rapture]

Okay readers, please take a deep breath and stop bashing Zonsen simply because they are a Chinese company and PLEASE can we stay on topic about Zonsen specifically and the Zonsen products.

Their factory is amazing! Immaculately clean, extremely ordered, fully automated (robots collect parts off the shelves and deliver to the assembly stations), technicians are uniformed and white coated and skilled, the quality assurance section is extremely well equipped with the technicians being skilled at what they do.

On that topic, our first engine was delayed after the Zonsen QA process identified an issue with parts of our engine which were subsequently remanufactured.  The QA system worked and the Zonsen desire to only send out engines that meet their stringent quality requirements was met.

Their manuals were pleasantly fairly good, with some English language errors evident but feedback that I have given has been immediately addressed and they’ve sent me a new updated manual within days of me providing my feedback.  With more feedback, their manuals will improve, but their first cut at them has been pretty good.

We all get that hours need to be put on the engines and third party validation of the product is required in order to build a reputation.  I’d love to drop 10 engines into the market here and have them fly their backsides off so that we can then point to a demonstrated history of reliability and associated product support.  I reckon that is what we need, but as the distributor, I cannot wear that cost or risk.  That said, there have been many sales into Europe so we should start getting more data on the success of the engines there, along with reports of first hand experience by unrelated parties.

So please, back on topic and let’s stop with the generic China product bashing. Don’t tar Zonsen with that brush until there is evidence to support the tarring… or there is evidence to support a good reputation.

[facthunter]

Their English is better than My Mandarin.  Nev

[Thruster88]

One should consider the loss of resale value compared to the same aircraft with a Rotax, $4k won't cut it.

[BurnieM]

2 hours ago, Rapture said:

Okay readers, please take a deep breath and stop bashing Zonsen simply because they are a Chinese company and PLEASE can we stay on topic about Zonsen specifically and the Zonsen products.

Their factory is amazing! Immaculately clean, extremely ordered, fully automated (robots collect parts off the shelves and deliver to the assembly stations), technicians are uniformed and white coated and skilled, the quality assurance section is extremely well equipped with the technicians being skilled at what they do.

On that topic, our first engine was delayed after the Zonsen QA process identified an issue with parts of our engine which were subsequently remanufactured.  The QA system worked and the Zonsen desire to only send out engines that meet their stringent quality requirements was met.

Their manuals were pleasantly fairly good, with some English language errors evident but feedback that I have given has been immediately addressed and they’ve sent me a new updated manual within days of me providing my feedback.  With more feedback, their manuals will improve, but their first cut at them has been pretty good.

We all get that hours need to be put on the engines and third party validation of the product is required in order to build a reputation.  I’d love to drop 10 engines into the market here and have them fly their backsides off so that we can then point to a demonstrated history of reliability and associated product support.  I reckon that is what we need, but as the distributor, I cannot wear that cost or risk.  That said, there have been many sales into Europe so we should start getting more data on the success of the engines there, along with reports of first hand experience by unrelated parties.

So please, back on topic and let’s stop with the generic China product bashing. Don’t tar Zonsen with that brush until there is evidence to support the tarring… or there is evidence to support a good reputation.

 

This is good but it does not take us anywhere.

 

I have a 2021 Indian made Royal Enfield motorcycle.

There are youtube videos showing European style, automated, very clean, organised Royal Enfield production lines.

The motorcycle is okay but its build quality is less than a new Suzuki motorcycle that I owned in the 80s.

 

"How do Zonsen look for and receive feedback from their non-Chinese customers ?

(question for Zonsen and distributor only)"

I ask this question because there appears to be a disconnect between the factory and its (potential) international customers.

 

Do they have an international marketing department ?

Why do they not see the advantage of proving themselves in Australa ? 

Data gathered and publicised here could help them a lot in the more lucative US market.

The factory providing 10 engines at no cost and then the distrubtor fitting those 10 engines is a no brainer.

 

What does it take to get any response from the factory ?

 

Edited yesterday at 03:51 AM by BurnieM

[facthunter]

There's some real rubbish that comes out of India. Some of it is made in atrocious conditions in very underprivileged and unregulated areas. The Enfield factory is clean and modern and could probably turn out a fair product. At the moment the Performances are about PAR for a 1960 model Brit bike. They are Cheap here and cheap parts.  Not for ME.

 Some China stuff looks as good  as anything  else does. They MASS produce really cheaply when they MAKE 10000's

[FlyBoy1960]

you get what you  pay for in China.

 

 My Telsa Model Y was made in China and it is perfect in every way

 

My  iPhone was also made in  China and it has worked perfectly for about 6 years

 

Price and quality don't go together. If you pay a fair price then you will get a good product out of China every time. We are not shopping at the $2 store.

[danny_galaga]

6 hours ago, facthunter said:

How would that work? Nev

If you are referring to my comments about trade wars, despite all the bluster from the Orange Guy, tariffs on Chinese products will be 10%, while most of his allies cop 25%. That's products to the US of course, but there are many ramifications for other countries, including how particular companies fair in the new environment. If Americans buy more zongshen because they've become an even more enticing proposition, that could mean zongshen have more income to streamline their production even more. 

[kgwilson]

China is the worlds factory. My MG EV was made there. The quality is better than my last Japanese car. The manual and all service documentation is in perfect English and it has a 10 year warranty. Most Japanese branded electronics are made in China. Almost all mobile phones in the world are made there including Apple & Samsung. BYD make the best busses in the world. CATL is by far the largest battery manufacturer in the world and leads the world in technology and innovation. The list is endless

 

Zonsen may be new here but is well known in other markets. In Australia we have a huge bias against Chinese made anything fueled by our politicians who are always going on about about the threat of some Chinese takeover, influence in the Pacific or their aircraft flying too close to ours when we are flying surveillance missions on the edge of THEIR airspace. The prejudices run deep. Early stuff was a bit suspect but it was cheap. The old adage of "You get what you pay for" is as true today as it ever was. Quality has never been cheap. So that is reflected in the price so the 4k saving of the Zonsen engine may not be much but hey a lot of Chinese made stuff now is better than Western equivalents so watch this space.

[Area-51]

Get shiny new engine, bolt it to a stick; throw an appropriate size and pitched prop on there, start it up, run it full bore to book max sustain power, shut down at TBO, remove engine from stick, bulk strip, measure inspect scrutinise internal components, publish results...

 

Get another engine, bolt it to a stick.... do it all again...

 

Reassemble first engine, bolt it to a stick.... blah blah blah... run it flat out to 50% extended TBO, remove from stick, bulk strip...  blah blah blah...

 

Reassemble second engine, bolt it to a stick, run it flat out to 100% extended TBO, remove from stick... blah blah blah...

 

Machines don't give a rats ass for human emotions... 

[Rapture]

14 minutes ago, Area-51 said:

Get shiny new engine, bolt it to a stick; throw an appropriate size and pitched prop on there, start it up, run it full bore to book max sustain power, shut down at TBO, remove engine from stick, bulk strip, measure inspect scrutinise internal components, publish results...

 

Get another engine, bolt it to a stick.... do it all again...

 

Reassemble first engine, bolt it to a stick.... blah blah blah... run it flat out to 50% extended TBO, remove from stick, bulk strip...  blah blah blah...

 

Reassemble second engine, bolt it to a stick, run it flat out to 100% extended TBO, remove from stick... blah blah blah...

 

Machines don't give a rats ass for human emotions... 

Zonsen have exceptional engine test facilities at their manufacturing and assembly plant in Chongqing. The majority of their engines have gone through the accelerated testing process required to obtain ASTM approval.  So they’ve already essentially done your test.

[BrendAn]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

There's some real rubbish that comes out of India. Some of it is made in atrocious conditions in very underprivileged and unregulated areas. The Enfield factory is clean and modern and could probably turn out a fair product. At the moment the Performances are about PAR for a 1960 model Brit bike. They are Cheap here and cheap parts.  Not for ME.

 Some China stuff looks as good  as anything  else does. They MASS produce really cheaply when they MAKE 10000's

You need to have a look at the latest royal Enfields. They have improved a lot.

[BurnieM]

46 minutes ago, Rapture said:

Zonsen have exceptional engine test facilities at their manufacturing and assembly plant in Chongqing. The majority of their engines have gone through the accelerated testing process required to obtain ASTM approval.  So they’ve already essentially done your test.

 

ASTM is a standards process that the manufacturer self certifies against.

 

Royal Enfield does the same thing in India.

 

But I am still wondering about the reliability, endurance and quality of the product. Sell it to me.

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

8 hours ago, BurnieM said:

 

But I am still wondering about the reliability, endurance and quality of the product. Sell it to me.

 

 

 

Hi BurnieM,

 

I remind you that when Rotax 912 engines first came out their TBO was 1,00hrs/ 10 years (might have been less). Derided by the supporters of the established aero engine manufacturers (LyCon) the engine struggled to find buyers.  Over time, thousands of engines, its now 2000 hrs/15 years and its reputation is (for those not emotionally invested) the class leader.

 

My point is - When a product first comes into the market, it has next to zero history so "reliability, endurance" can only be extrapolated from factory testing. Factory testing can be subject to marketing influence.  We all know this, so are understandably wary. Quality is for the most part an intangible assessment, made by the purchaser.  Most new, to the market, products carve out their sales neish by having a strategy eg cheaper, filling a supply gap, etc. It seems to me that Zonsen are doing this in their pricing (could be cheaper) and their 110 hp offering. They will know that as a Chinese manufacturer their product will be viewed, by the West, with some scepticism. They will also know that the aircraft industry is, by necessity conservative, in their adoption of "new" technology. Their acceptance will take time, every  aircraft forced landing/crash with suspected engine failure, a setback. Persistence & superior aftermarket service will be the keys to their success /failure.😈

[facthunter]

Why use SILLY terms like "Not Emotionally Invested"?   There's not much NEW technology in a Rotax.  More of a different approach. Part water cooled.  Pressed up crankshaft. Weird oil return system Awful carburettors in a bad position, Expensive Bit's. Nev

Edited 22 hours ago by facthunter
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