3 more gone too soon. Near Maffra 16/11/24

[djpacro]

4 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

The published stall speeds are very unrealistic for an aircraft with 800kg MTOW and only 110 sq feet of wing. ...

Unfortunately, many published stall speeds are in IAS replete with position errors. Not that hard to calculate a real, expected stall speed in CAS for a normal wing. 58 kts flaps up.

[Methusala]

Question: Has flying become too accessible? This may seem a ridiculous proposition but, with the increasing wealth of a section of population has it? We know that snow sports have become easier with snow boarding. Motor cycles are now popular as symbols of "freedom". Many enjoy the thrill of jetskis and even snapping pics of oneself leaning at impossible angles over the void on cliff tops is a "thing".

Flying also has a certain cachet. We who have taken the hard road to flying qualification realise too well the invisible gap between safety and disaster and treat such with great respect. Some may be schooled to believe that everything is possible with our innate gifts of managing hazards. I am too often reminded of this situation when listening to work safety cynics.

This is my attempt to make sense of the needless disasters we are confronted with all too frequently on these pages. I am not attempting to assign any directed blame, merely posing a question. Don

[onetrack]

Quote

"20KTS of wind is a high wind component, compared to the published stall speed"

 

Please explain this comment

Doing a 180° turn, going from a 20KT headwind to a 20KT tailwind, with a heavily loaded experimental aircraft, with a reportedly low stall speed, while you're at low altitude, looking for something on the ground - what could possibly go wrong? Then make that a 20KT crosswind for landing, you've got a real handful!

[facthunter]

"Just as easy as driving a CAR" ?  NO. It's nothing like it.. The airflow over the wings and nothing else keeps you from dying by falling. Gusts are invisible mostly. . One mistake is all it takes.  ANYTIME. Nev

[RFguy]

just come to look at this....

some numbers....

800kg and only  "7.92 m (26 ft)"   wingspan, only 110.5 sq ft ?????

it would need a very high lift wing   to make 35 kts, and thus to do 115 kts cruise, would need a big engine. which it doesnt have.

calculating.....

I estimate, with that engine, and that wing and that weight, something like about ...  ~  55  knots stall speed clean......

 

**Brendan - I think the numbers , where ever you got them they are KTS not KM/H - then the stall speed makes sense.

a 30 deg bank would increase the clean stall to 59kts.

 

so perhaps just another boring stall spin story, nothing to see here.... 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 12:50 AM by RFguy

[facthunter]

You CAN fly a plane WITHOUT an ASI indication.  IF the ASI is incorrect it will not fly as it should at lower airspeeds .. IF you float when flaring you have excess speed. If it lands firmly with the stick well back with  a sharp flare, you are too slow.. Everyone should carry a margin of extra speed depending on the conditions. Sometimes those conditions CHANGE without warning requiring quickly applied corrective actions. We are probably not using POWER as an extra control enough.  It's often actively discouraged in U/L flying training, If these events get to the stage of being "another Boring  event" we are not doing enough about OUR techniques and skills training. They MUST become more  RARE. Nev

[rhtrudder]

Just found out the pilot was a local boy from Tongala,I took him up a couple of years ago for his first flight, he was very keen and soon had his instructors ticket and was possibly on his way to a commercial, looks like his brother and cousin were lost as well, I think he had relatives in the area I guess that’s why all the orbits, he had only just taken over the plane , sad times. 

[RFguy]

was the pilot the original builder ? Otherwise up to the original builder to do the test flying and V speeds, and the new owner to trust but verify......

 

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

just come to look at this....

some numbers....

800kg and only  "7.92 m (26 ft)"   wingspan, only 110.5 sq ft ?????

it would need a very high lift wing   to make 35 kts, and thus to do 115 kts cruise, would need a big engine. which it doesnt have.

calculating.....

I estimate, with that engine, and that wing and that weight, something like about ...  ~  55  knots stall speed clean......

 

**Brendan - I think the numbers , where ever you got them they are KTS not KM/H - then the stall speed makes sense.

a 30 deg bank would increase the clean stall to 59kts.

 

so perhaps just another boring stall spin story, nothing to see here.... 

 

 

yes it was in knots.    even in my little xair i never put that into a turn at under 50 knots to be safe. on my own touchdown had to be over 30 knts for a smooth landing and that thing only weighed 240 kg with a huge wing so morgans figures must be optimistic at best.

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, Methusala said:

Question: Has flying become too accessible? This may seem a ridiculous proposition but, with the increasing wealth of a section of population has it? We know that snow sports have become easier with snow boarding. Motor cycles are now popular as symbols of "freedom". Many enjoy the thrill of jetskis and even snapping pics of oneself leaning at impossible angles over the void on cliff tops is a "thing".

Flying also has a certain cachet. We who have taken the hard road to flying qualification realise too well the invisible gap between safety and disaster and treat such with great respect. Some may be schooled to believe that everything is possible with our innate gifts of managing hazards. I am too often reminded of this situation when listening to work safety cynics.

This is my attempt to make sense of the needless disasters we are confronted with all too frequently on these pages. I am not attempting to assign any directed blame, merely posing a question. Don

There seems to be an aircraft accident on the news nearly every week for the last couple of years. 

[turboplanner]

6 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

There seems to be an aircraft accident on the news nearly every week for the last couple of years. 

Only because people have been reporting GA accidents, RPT accidents, Military accidents, and accidents from all over the world in countries with vastly different standards and regulations compared to Australia. 

 

Although RA don't seem to be reported as well as they used to be, and people don't see every Australian newspaper report on RA accidents, the RA fatalities still seem to be much lower than the 10 per year average of about ten years ago.

[BrendAn]

17 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Only because people have been reporting GA accidents, RPT accidents, Military accidents, and accidents from all over the world in countries with vastly different standards and regulations compared to Australia. 

 

Although RA don't seem to be reported as well as they used to be, and people don't see every Australian newspaper report on RA accidents, the RA fatalities still seem to be much lower than the 10 per year average of about ten years ago.

You always say this and I always say I am only talking about Australia, I can not remember so many accidents on the news as there have been in recent years.

[rhtrudder]

1 hour ago, RFguy said:

was the pilot the original builder ? Otherwise up to the original builder to do the test flying and V speeds, and the new owner to trust but verify......

 

Not the original builder 

[red750]

This report on Daily Mail..

 

Two of the three young people killed in a horror plane crash have been identified as brothers.

 

The two brothers, aged 20 and 16, and a 15-year-old local male were on board a small plane when it smashed into a paddock and burst into flames in Victoria's Gippsland region on Saturday.

 

The brothers were from the Goulburn Valley town of Tongala while the 15-year-old was from Tinamba.

 

All three victims were related.

 

Read more here.

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, onetrack said:

Doing a 180° turn, going from a 20KT headwind to a 20KT tailwind, with a heavily loaded experimental aircraft, with a reportedly low stall speed, while you're at low altitude, looking for something on the ground - what could possibly go wrong? Then make that a 20KT crosswind for landing, you've got a real handful!

I may have this very wrong - Once airborne, unless subject to turbulence/wind shear/ gust, the aircraft does not "know" or care from which direction the wind is coming from. The aircraft will perform just the same with a 20 knot tailwind, as a 20 knot  headwind. The ground speed will differ but the air speed remains the same.

[BrendAn]

now we know one of the passengers was from tinamba i don't believe there was any intention to land , i think the plan was do a few circles over the relatives farm then go back to west sale for a landing..  

all 3 of them had only just began their lives too. 

[BrendAn]

Maffra resident Debbie said she was sitting at home with her brother when they noticed the plane fly east and then west. They suspected at the time that the pilot was having trouble with the engine.

“We just knew it didn’t sound like a normal engine flying over,” Bedggwood said.

“The engine was revving and making a weird noise. We said it didn’t sound right. As we watched it fly off, we said, ‘We hope it lands OK.’ Not long after that, we got the notification about the crash.”

 

the crap they put on the news.  

Edited Sunday at 05:36 AM by BrendAn

[Thruster88]

It is understandable why this lay person would say this. Aircraft circling will have a changing engine note due to the doppler? effect. It doesn't sound like a normal Aircraft flying past. 

[turboplanner]

...a Rotax for the first time doesn't sound like a normal aircraft, and the noises may have been revving the engine over the farms which is a fairly common occurrance to alert the people inside the house.

[BrendAn]

3 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

...a Rotax for the first time doesn't sound like a normal aircraft, and the noises may have been revving the engine over the farms which is a fairly common occurrance to alert the people inside the house.

It was when it was circling Maffra townsite   . We know Rotax sound different. What annoys me is news crews putting out rubbish for headlines. I know it's the way of the world. At least they didn't call it a Cessna I suppose.

Edited Sunday at 05:59 AM by BrendAn

[turboplanner]

3 hours ago, BrendAn said:

You always say this and I always say I am only talking about Australia, I can not remember so many accidents on the news as there have been in recent years.

Well put it this way the base load of RA fatalies about ten years ago was about 12 people per year. If you are hearing of more than 12 per year in RA Australia, then its time for RAA t step up and take action.

[BrendAn]

Just now, turboplanner said:

Well put it this way the base load of RA fatalies about ten years ago was about 12 people per year. If you are hearing of more than 12 per year in RA Australia, then its time for RAA t step up and take action.

I am as always talking all accidents in Australia, ga and ra. What we see on the news. Surely you have seen all these news stories too.

[kgwilson]

The Cougar is basically a 4 seater version of the Sierra I built. The wing area is about 20 Sq feet bigger than the Sierra but the wingspan the same at 26 feet, it just has a deeper chord. Garry Morgan had one built when I purchased my kit. It was pretty cramped in the back. I can't remember what engine he had in it.

 

As a comparison here are the measured specs of my Sierra as built by me.

Aircraft: Morgan Cheetah Sierra 100

Builder: Kevin Wilson completed 2015

Dimensions: Length Spinner to rudder 19 feet (5.8 metres)

Wing Span 26 feet (7.9 metres)

Wing Area 91 Square feet (8.45 Sq metres)

Wing Loading 6.59Lb/Sq ft (32.18kg/Sq metre)

Wing Chord root/tip 4.4/3.4feet (1300mm/1050mm)

Tailplane span 7.5 feet (2.3 metres)

Height (rudder tip) 6.5 feet (2.0 metres)

Wheelbase (mains) 5.6 feet (1.7 metres)

Empty weight 738lbs (335kg)

Max Takeoff weight 1323lbs (600kg)

Cabin width 42 inches (1067mm)

Baggage space 31.8 cubic feet (900 litres)

Engine: Jabiru 3300 6 cylinder horizontally opposed ram air cooled,120hp 3^rd generation.

Propellor: Bolly Bos 5 carbon fibre 60 inch ground adjustable

Performance: Cruise - sea level 120 knots (222 kmh)

Vne 150 knots (280 kmh)

Va 85 knots (160 kmh)

Vs Stall - clean 37 knots (70 kmh)

Vso Stall – flaps 32 knots (60 kmh)

Climb @ MTOW 1000fpm @ 80 knots

Glide ratio 12:1

Takeoff roll 180 metres

Landing roll 180 metres

Service ceiling 10,000 feet

Fuel consumption 18 – 28 litres ph

Fuel capacity 170 litres in 3 tanks

 

 

 

[BurnieM]

While 1 death is 1 death too many, lets keep things in proportion; 12 deaths is an extremely small number.

 

I used to work for an undertaker 20 years ago. Sydney metro area had 60 deaths a day, not the whole of NSW just Sydney metro.

The number is larger now.

 

Each summer we get stories about the number of children drowning in pools. Sad, but again, a very small number.

 

[Ultralights]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

I may have this very wrong - Once airborne, unless subject to turbulence/wind shear/ gust, the aircraft does not "know" or care from which direction the wind is coming from. The aircraft will perform just the same with a 20 knot tailwind, as a 20 knot  headwind. The ground speed will differ but the air speed remains the same.

this is correct.  Headwind and Tailwind are only with reference with the ground,  the aircraft has no knowledge of these things, to it, its all wind passing over it at CAS.