3 more gone too soon. Near Maffra 16/11/24

[facthunter]

A spin at low height is not recoverable so PREVENTION would be  the best course.. With stalls,  unload the wings or add full power. if required. Adding drag in any low speed situation requires an increased RoD or added power to compensate.  You anticipate this, not wait for the speed to drop.  It's energy management 101. 

  Planes that are docile are not so docile when heavy loaded, have a rearward CofG or  in a density Altitude limiting situation.  Ground effect is your friend if you want to stay in the Air and want to increase speed  in a tight go around. Nev

[kgwilson]

8 hours ago, djpacro said:

So, he would've known how to recover from a spin in a Pitts. I do spin endorsements for instructor trainees then emphasise that the technique I taught them only applies to the type that we did the training in, and they should read the POH for the type they will be instructing in. Then one needs enough height to recover hence the focus on prevention in UPRT.

As I mentioned you must know your aircraft. The Pitts is is about as different from the Cougar as you can get in light aircraft.

[facthunter]

The design of some planes makes spin recovery very uncertain.. Some get modified some don't.  You wouldn't have them in a flying school. Some might argue it would make you a better pilot but you to a great  extent MAKE your own luck..  Nev

[aro]

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

The Pitts is is about as different from the Cougar as you can get in light aircraft.

I wasn't suggesting that any aircraft would be recoverable from that height, just commenting on the suggestion that aerobatic training might prevent this type of accident. It appears he did have aerobatic training.

[alf jessup]

Only had the plane 2 weeks so would have been very unfamiliar with its handling and quirks aircraft have.

yes may have had 600 hours and was an instructor but still a test pilot in an unfamiliar aircraft IMO and flying at a low level and gusty conditions in fairly tight turns is not something I would have been doing.

[facthunter]

Remember the friends and relatives. No one KNOWs exactly what happened for certain.  Nev

[alf jessup]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Remember the friends and relatives. No one KNOWs exactly what happened for certain.  Nev

True Nev,

But when you studied the ADSB data on flight radar you could see the see the ground speed data during flight and more so during the orbits as well as the altitude fluctuations.

It doesn’t take much to work out, a pleasure flight ended in tragedy for sure, no one intends on colliding with the ground when they take off.

And that’s not disrespecting the young pilot in this case.

I’ve flown hundreds of hours in that area and it can get quite nasty with NW, N and NE winds coming off the Great Dividing Range.

[facthunter]

I agree about the winds. Nev

[Thruster88]

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2024/report/ao-2024-058

 

I will say this again in light of the evidence.

 

The published stall speeds are very unrealistic for an aircraft with 800kg MTOW and only 110 sq feet of wing. Could it lead pilots to fly at unsafe airspeed during manoeuvring? 

 

110 sq feet of wing area, same as my RV6a....

Edited Wednesday at 08:17 PM by Thruster88

[facthunter]

Yes it COULD, is the simple answer.   Nev

[BurnieM]

Am I missing something.

Isn't it a very good idea to verify stall speeds on a newly purchased aircraft.

 

[kgwilson]

It was clarified later that the published clean stall was 56 knots not kmh & full flap 50 knots which seems more realistic.

[facthunter]

A STALL warning working on Angle of attack is best. Stall stick position used in qualified situations is also good. Pre stall buffeting  can be, sloppy control feel less  so.   I think we have gone through this pretty comprehensively. Nev

[BrendAn]

I think when the pilot and passengers are fixated on something on the ground airmanship goes out the window.

[Flightrite]

The sad part is with these types of accidents is that it’s totally unnecessary to die this way! Discipline I find is hugely lacking in a lot of Pvt drivers, some simply have no idea, some don’t care and some shouldn’t be in charge of a lawn mower! 

[facthunter]

"Someone HAS to mind the Shop".  Nev

[Flightrite]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

"Someone HAS to mind the Shop".  Nev

That about sums it up in a nut shell!👍

[BrendAn]

7 hours ago, Flightrite said:

The sad part is with these types of accidents is that it’s totally unnecessary to die this way! Discipline I find is hugely lacking in a lot of Pvt drivers, some simply have no idea, some don’t care and some shouldn’t be in charge of a lawn mower! 

If I told you all the near misses and crap that I put up with every day it would take forever. When U drive around Melbourne all day you become immune to most stuff .the latest Muppet trick is to fly past and cut across the front of trucks to an exit ramp. Even if there is nothing behind the truck. I worked 5 hours this morning and only got cut off once. That's a great day.

Edited Friday at 03:16 AM by BrendAn

[spacesailor]

The same , on the m4 out of Sydney. 

Hogging the right-hand lane , then ' at the last minute ' cutting across all the

Lanes to take the exit. 

One P plater actually hit the barrier,  loosing his rear bumper. 

spacesailor

 

[Moneybox]

Sure some are poor drivers but we need to remember we were all young once. Fortunately we had some fabulous roads to enjoy without all the traffic and surveillance that's about now. I've always stated that all young drivers should be involved in motorsport where they can learn important skills and have a lot of fun blowing off steam in a controlled environment.

 

Our youngsters grew up with dirt carts, autox, rallying and more. It never stopped them messing about on the road but I think they had a better understanding of the limits of their vehicle. 

[spacesailor]

" Drive " have just today . Run a wet skid course on telly . With new car technology. 

When one driver tried to use his knowledge,  it made the stop longer .

Hard on the brake while steering ' in the wet .

New tech will beat human driving every time .

I hope I can keep the brakes on when the car should  loose grip . But doesn't. 

spacesailor

[Flightrite]

I was actually ref to Pvt pilots, I use the term ‘ drivers’ as that’s all I see we pilots are, just drivers of machinery!🤮 Road drivers? Well that’s a whole other nightmare😂

Edited yesterday at 11:32 AM by Flightrite

[Underwood]

Quote

I use the term ‘ drivers’ as that’s all I see we pilots are, just drivers of machinery!

Do you not think having that attitude towards the act of flying could present its own hazards?

[Methusala]

Well actually, if drivers paid similar attention to their duties as most pilots do, then it would be a "better world".