Airmanship

[BrendAn]

On my last flight with an instructor about 3 months ago, something was said that I didn't understand.

In all the training I have done I have always been told to stay on the centre line when backtracking on a runway. But  on that last flight we had to backtrack and when I got on the center line the instructor had a go at me and told me to get off the center line because it was bad airmanship. I was doing what every instructor has taught me then   raises his voice and has a go at me for it. We did one circuit and I was still put off from getting that rebuke so I landed and said forget it .   Why would it be bad airmanship to travel in the center line. 

Edited December 8 by BrendAn

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

On my last flight with an instructor about 3 months ago, something was said that I didn't understand.

In all the training I have done I have always been told to stay on the centre line when backtracking on a runway. But  on that last flight we had to backtrack and when I got on the center line the instructor had a go at me and told me to get off the center line because it was bad airmanship. I was doing what every instructor has taught me then this smartarse  raises his voice and has a go at me for it. We did one circuit and I was still put off from getting that rebuke so I landed and said forget it .  I felt like kicking his arse. 

Is he right. Why would it be bad airmanship to travel in the center line. 

Study the regulations.

[BrendAn]

6 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Study the regulations.

Helpful as usual. Are you saying I was taught wrong. Or you don't know.

[onetrack]

Brendan, this previous discussion from over 20 years ago produces a number of points to keep in mind. It seems there's a variance in teaching amongst instructors.

Your instructor may be set on teaching offset backtracking, just in case another aircraft has a need for an emergency landing on your runway.

In which case, one would expect some radio warning of the need to land immediately, but this is not always the case, either.

 

 

[KRviator]

I don't recall being taught or told either way, TBH. I typically taxi or backtrack on the centerline of a taxiway or runway - but I can imagine an aircraft would be more visible if it were offset to one side of the white lines.

As for:

58 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Study the regulations.

About as useful as a flyscreen in a fucken submarine. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, why bother? You could have at least told him which regulation of the 9,559,224 individual rules and subparts across the CAR's, CASR's, MOS' and Act's he should review....

[BrendAn]

33 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Brendan, this previous discussion from over 20 years ago produces a number of points to keep in mind. It seems there's a variance in teaching amongst instructors.

Your instructor may be set on teaching offset backtracking, just in case another aircraft has a need for an emergency landing on your runway.

In which case, one would expect some radio warning of the need to land immediately, but this is not always the case, either.

 

 

Thanks. I was just reading those old posts. 

[BrendAn]

11 minutes ago, KRviator said:

I don't recall being taught or told either way, TBH. I typically taxi or backtrack on the centerline of a taxiway or runway - but I can imagine an aircraft would be more visible if it were offset to one side of the white lines.

As for:

About as useful as a flyscreen in a fucken submarine. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, why bother? You could have at least told him which regulation of the 9,559,224 individual rules and subparts across the CAR's, CASR's, MOS' and Act's he should review....

I think it's his go to answer if he doesn't know himself.  Interesting to read that there is no hard and fast rule. That instructor was right even though he told me different to the others. 

[Bosi72]

The legislations related to taxi and centerline tracking are in Part 61 Tolerances which stipulates that taxi have to be within +/-1.5m from the centerline, and when landing be within +/-2m from the centerline. 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.au/F2014L01102/2021-05-18/2021-05-18/text/1/epub/OEBPS/document_4/document_4.html#_Toc524084086

 

However, there are several situations when taxi can be done away from centerline.

For example Formation takeoffs/landings/taxi, or situation when taxing/backtracking on a non-active runway. 

 

Also, give way aircraft to the right, landing aircraft, keep right, etc..:

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/casr1998333/s91.365.html#:~:text=(d) the aircraft and any,head on or approximately so.

 

 

In all cases establish the comms and communicate intentions.

 

 

 

 

 

[johnm]

could be a positive side to this Brendan ............... your aviation skills are so good that the instructor had to find something obscure to demonstrate their dominance

 

or perhaps in reverse - the instrucrors skills are so bad that .............

 

stick with it - I reckon I would had 4 or 5 instructurs to solo - its good seeing the different styles and the chaff from the wheat

[djpacro]

My instructor taught me to taxi on the right of a runway in the event that it is suddenly used by an aircraft in an emergency. I now teach the same to other instructors.

 

I once observed a Mooney taxiing along the centreline of a very wide runway. An aircraft was approaching it from behind after an engine failure. Just in the wrong place. Not enough space to land either side of the Mooney so he tried to stretch the glide. Stalled and came down very hard just ahead of the Mooney, fortunately walked away from it. Aircraft severely damaged. If only the Mooney had been taxiing on the right the other aircraft would've safely landed beside it.

 

At the same airfield I have encountered (several times) other aircraft taxiing towards me on a runway and deciding to keep to their left. Arguing with me on the radio telling me I should keep to the left rather than to the right. I wonder what they were told about the rules of taxiing.

 

Incidentally, Part 61 has a number of dangerous elements in the standards.

 

As for airmanship - many instructors don't bother to read the often-excellent advice by CASA in advisory circulars. I try to teach them this extra stuff too.

[turboplanner]

10 hours ago, KRviator said:

I don't recall being taught or told either way, TBH. I typically taxi or backtrack on the centerline of a taxiway or runway - but I can imagine an aircraft would be more visible if it were offset to one side of the white lines.

As for:

About as useful as a flyscreen in a fucken submarine. If you don't have anything meaningful to contribute, why bother? You could have at least told him which regulation of the 9,559,224 individual rules and subparts across the CAR's, CASR's, MOS' and Act's he should review....

Well he got you in for a start.

The character will be referring to any regulations like that before his first solo on an airstrip without taxyways or before first navex with a landing involved. In either case the student has to refer to regulations whether there are 9.56 million or not.

[Blueadventures]

33 minutes ago, djpacro said:

My instructor taught me to taxi on the right of a runway in the event that it is suddenly used by an aircraft in an emergency. I now teach the same to other instructors.

 

I once observed a Mooney taxiing along the centreline of a very wide runway. An aircraft was approaching it from behind after an engine failure. Just in the wrong place. Not enough space to land either side of the Mooney so he tried to stretch the glide. Stalled and came down very hard just ahead of the Mooney, fortunately walked away from it. Aircraft severely damaged. If only the Mooney had been taxiing on the right the other aircraft would've safely landed beside it.

 

At the same airfield I have encountered (several times) other aircraft taxiing towards me on a runway and deciding to keep to their left. Arguing with me on the radio telling me I should keep to the left rather than to the right. I wonder what they were told about the rules of taxiing.

 

Incidentally, Part 61 has a number of dangerous elements in the standards.

 

As for airmanship - many instructors don't bother to read the often-excellent advice by CASA in advisory circulars. I try to teach them this extra stuff too.

At the same airfield I have encountered (several times) other aircraft taxiing towards me on a runway and deciding to keep to their left. Arguing with me on the radio telling me I should keep to the left rather than to the right. I wonder what they were told about the rules of taxiing.  Car drivers.

[facthunter]

As long as you both have made it clear to each other. but it's as it is on water, Rivers etc  Be on the RIGHT. Pic 's sit on the Left (except some choppers.)  A runway occupied by another plane is not  available to any other aircraft. (officially). IF you backtrack on the runway any turn has to go OFF centre  so make sure your turn radius is tight enough to stay on the runway..  Nev

[Area-51]

I'm going to throw a brick into the mixer by saying the following regarding airmanship. If you have called Final, or, have entered the cleared Active Runway and advised such, or, have landed and are manoeuvring upon the active runway, the runway is "yours". The choice to taxi in the centre, right, or left side of the runway is "yours". The decision to allow another aircraft to enter the Active Runway while you are still manoeuvring upon it is "yours". It is also your responsibility to lead the situation and communicate with awareness of the situation. As pilot in command the decision to abort your take off, return to the parking area, shut down the engine, and boot the "passenger" in the right seat out of the aircraft, is "yours". Some airfields simply will result in the aircraft becoming bogged in mud unless remaining upon the centreline; so this offset taxi rule is not practical is it? Other fields have a terminal or parking at either end, so if the instructor gives you unwarranted grief and you own the aircraft you can boot them out and make them find the gate code to walk back; they might cause to rethink their abusive performance. At the same time being unnecessarily stubborn egotistical and uncompromising in the subjective situation will not help either.

[BrendAn]

7 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Well he got you in for a start.

The character will be referring to any regulations like that before his first solo on an airstrip without taxyways or before first navex with a landing involved. In either case the student has to refer to regulations whether there are 9.56 million or not.

I am blocking you turbo.  You don't seem to be able to give sensible replies. 

[turboplanner]

9 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

I am blocking you turbo.  You don't seem to be able to give sensible replies. 

Good, thanks; someone else did what I recommended for you; looked the regulations up and provided them for you. It's not that hard.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Good, thanks; someone else did what I recommended for you; looked the regulations up and provided them for you. It's not that hard.

i can figure that out on my own. i posted on the forum to discuss with the members.   i know you have a wealth of knowledge but you prefer to make comments that are not helpful.  . when i asked the question why not say what you did when you used to fly. 

[aro]

11 hours ago, Bosi72 said:

The legislations related to taxi and centerline tracking are in Part 61 Tolerances which stipulates that taxi have to be within +/-1.5m from the centerline, and when landing be within +/-2m from the centerline.

They are standards used for assessing your skill during a test, not legislated requirements.

And assuming the runway is wide enough, if you have a good e.g. safety related reason for taxying off the centerline of the runway you're unlikely to be failed for it. It's more about your plan, and whether you can control the aircraft to execute the plan.

[Thruster88]

For me Airpersonship is about operating in a way that will minimize the chance of my aircraft being involved in a fatal accident. Taxiing on or off the centre line is irrelevant, instructors should focus on the things that matter, hopefully they read accident reports and actually know what they are and pass that wisdom on to the new pilots.

[Blueadventures]

58 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

For me Airpersonship is about operating in a way that will minimize the chance of my aircraft being involved in a fatal accident. Taxiing on or off the centre line is irrelevant, instructors should focus on the things that matter, hopefully they read accident reports and actually know what they are and pass that wisdom on to the new pilots.

Maybe the instructor is a low hours instructor and still improving his delivery.

[rodgerc]

As a pilot of tailwheel aircraft with very limited forward visibility for the last 600or so hours, I find it preferable to make continuous shallow S-turns while taxiing to see where I’m going and thus avoid clobbering someone on a reciprocal heading….Frankly, I consider taxiing blind to be a poorer form of airmanship than weaving either side of a centreline. 

[Underwood]

I tend to taxi as far over to one side of the runway as practical. Most of my experience is operating to and from small grass strips where I developed this habit as a self preservation technique.

When I used to operate a taildragger Id do as rodger mentions above(you sorta have to)

 

[spacesailor]

 

In this ' high tech world' a camera would let you see ahead .

utube has lots of aircraft with many camera's .

Even down to a small HummelBird .

 

spacesailor

 

 

 

 

 

[onetrack]

Is another screen to look at in a cramped cabin, advisable? 

[Marty_d]

If you had the power switch linked to the tail wheel so the screen only turned on when the wheel was on the ground, it wouldn't be a distraction.