Downwind radio transmissions

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi Learned Pilots/Instructors,

 

Depending on traffic (rapidly increasing at Cessnock), I often conduct downwind circuits IN CLOSE descending early downwind from around 1000 ft agl....always aware and avoiding of the continual flow of training aircraft in circuit.

 

On Sunday last when on mid downwind ...again IN CLOSE, three aircraft called 'crosswind for mid downwind runway etc'....I had two in sight but not the third.

 

The two I had in sight were marginally below the horizon, and therefore marginally below my then height of around 900 ft.....( Although an ultralight, 912 Drifter, I don't fly 500ft circuits as my cruising speed is 63kts,and 55kts in circuit).

 

Simply put, the aircraft flying crosswind (across the strip) to join mid downwind, were entering circuit at around 800-850 ft.....Had I been further out this MAY POSSIBLY have been less critical, however still quite disconcerting.

 

Yes, I had called Downwind...yes the radio was providing crystal clear transmission.

 

MY QUESTION is this...What Downwind call might I give to alert inbound traffic that my circuit is close....Would 'Close Downwind' suffice.....are there any perferred options.

 

Sure I can do ultralight circuits however perfer the height for odvious reasons.

 

I remember reading a US article when a pilot was checking a strip in close, and the call he gave was ideal ....can't locate the article !

 

Your feedback would be welcome as I continue to read up on correct transmission procedures.

 

Thank you in advance.

 

JL

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi fellow pilots...would really welcome some help on this one...Thanks

 

JL

 

 

[Barefootpilot]

Hello,

 

Suprised no one has jumped in here. In my opionion you have done pretty much the right thing. The call I would make its "aircraft joining downwind drifter 999 is a close mid downwind maintaining 1000' and do not have you visual"

 

I'm a little confused why you fly 1000' ccts if you start decending on downwind? Decent is meant to be started when you turn base so either you could fly a larger cct ( I hate large circuits) or go down to 500' The difference between 55kts and 63kts is not much! and in the way I read it is more of a catagory thing than an absolute speed limit. If you fly close slow circuits you can fly at 500' if you fly mid performance aircaft with slightly larger circuits you go to 1000' and if you are high performance and need the extra space for the circuit you got to 1500' I'm sure I'll get shot for that though!

 

Adam.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

As Adam observed, you should really plan your circuit to start your descent when turning base IMO. I've never had occasion to use "close downwind" but I'm not averse to using "close base" and/or "short final" calls when I think they would add value for other traffic

 

The whole slow ultralight = 500ft circuit is a muddle - the actual definition is "not capable of more than 55kts calibrated airspeed at full power in level flight" (hence it doesn't apply to very many types).

 

It originated in the US FAR103 regulations defining the class of ultralights which can be flown without any training or pilot certificate whatsoever. These needed to be separated from other traffic so 500ft circuits but the rule then got imposed here when we imported the USA airspace model as part of the NAS2 changes.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Thanks Adam ,

 

I usually commence early downwind at 1000 ft and turn base around 800 ft....could be a hangover from gliding days....if there are aircraft in circuit but wide and ahead of me (GA circuits) I maintain height and extend downwind until they are on final.

 

Thanks also for your suggested 'Downwind call' ....my main query was is there a Standard Terminology downwind call for a close circuit ?.....Downwind can mean anything from close to wide of the strip. Perhaps more of an issue in a busy circuit.

 

Thanks again

 

JL

 

 

[poteroo]

JL

 

You'll probably cause less angst, and have a less anxious flight, if you fly 500 ft circuits. Your aircraft performance is really applicable to the 500ft circuit.

 

When you begin to turn downwind, call xxxx turning low level downwind, runway xx, for a xxxx.

 

The view of other traffic is much better at 500ft, and you can adjust your base turn and final turn to either stay 'ahead' of other traffic, or you can elect to 'slow' a little and so allow them to fit in ahead of you.

 

The really important thing about the 500ft circuit is that you fly it with the same 'angle' from your eye to the strip as at higher circuits. Use a part of the aircraft structure, eg half way up a strut,or the flap/aileron intersection,as your guide. This then keeps you 'inside' the aircraft at higher circuit levels - and they can see you because they are looking in the right place. Remember that they have to give way to you - so at least make it easy for them to see you.

 

In any case, your turn onto base should be at 500 ft agl, just as it should be 1000' on the downwind to base turn in the 1000ft circuit. And remember to really scan the 'finals' airspace before turning onto final.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Thanks poteroo,very helpful.

 

Cheers

 

JL

 

 

[nong]

JL

 

Potteroo says "they are required to give way to you" but if you are doing 500 foot circuits as a 55kt ultralight you are, in reality, required to give way to all other powered aircraft. This is from "Operations at Non-Towered Aerodromes" which you can read at the CASA website. Highly recommended.

 

Cheers Nong

 

 

[nong]

JL

 

Sorry, I made a blue.

 

The 55kt ultralight will give way to ALL aircraft is what I should have said.

 

Cheers

 

Nong

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

JLSorry, I made a blue.

 

The 55kt ultralight will give way to ALL aircraft is what I should have said.

 

Cheers

 

Nong

Sorry mate but I believe that is still incorrect. This was another confusion brought about by blindly importing the US airspace model (see my earlier post) and, worryingly you aren't the only one who believes this. The 55kt ultralight does NOT have to give way to other aircraft !!!

 

The Supplemental Guuidance Material for Operations at non-towered aerodromes clarified that they have no less right to use airspace or runway than any other aircraft. http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/airspace_reform/pdf/6pp.pdf

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[facthunter]

circuit technique.

 

Jumping into this a little late, but I have to express a CONCERN at the idea of descending anywhere (prior to base) while not in the dead side of the circuit.

 

.......(a) For midfield-crosswind, in which case I would be at the height of MY circuit, before I cross the RWY centreline, or

 

.......(b) when entering the circuit from a 45 degree intercept to downwind be at MY circuit height before entering the circuit. This must be subject to a degree of judgement is to where the circuit extends to, but the underlying philosophy is NOT to be in a position of DESCENDING onto other traffic,generally, The unavoidable exception being BASE & FINAL where extreme care and effective lookout for other traffic has to occurr.

 

The speed determinant, for circuit height, ( the 120 Kts figure) is the NORMAL speed for the aircraft type on downwind when operated according to the book ie. The POHandbook or relevant approved operating manual for the type. It is not the speed that you COULD fly at if you push Vne. I suppose implicit in all this is that you would operate your aircraft in a standard way. I won't comment on the 55Kt. situation as it's already being hotly debated. Nev..

 

 

[poteroo]

Agree with Nev on the need to remain at correct circuit altitude. My understanding is also that RAA category aircraft - Category A - high or low performance - all have equal rights in the circuit provided they have a radio and use it for all the required calls.

 

Of course, having right of way doesn't mean that one should always doggedly insist on using it. There are times when slowing down, or extending a leg, or tightening up the circuit, in order to allow faster and heavier traffic to assume priority, will earn you lots of brownie points. It indicates you are thinking ahead of your own little cocoon, and both you, and your airport, will gain a friendly reputation. This is particularly the case where RPT make straight in approaches on GPS or ILS.

 

One point that I failed to mention in my earlier post to JL was that should you decide to make a crosswind midfield join at 500 agl - there is a need to be very sure that there isn't high performance departing traffic off that runway - because they could very easily be thru 500 agl by that distance down the runway, and certainly not be expecting to see crossing 500 agl traffic.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Yenn]

Given that the circuit height for slow aircraft should be 500'. Where do you start to descend from 500' to the strip height. Is it supposed to start at the base turn, in which case you will be lining up for final at well below 500' and in that case to get in with an engine failure you will have to be very near the threshold and descend through the flight path of faster planes, or do you start descent at the turn to finals, where you will be more aligned with the flight path of faster planes, but you will be turning in front of them and maybe more visible.

 

I have not looked up to see what is said in the book of words, so the answer may be there.

 

 

[poteroo]

There are several scenarios to this.

 

(1) At a regular airport with other traffic, you use a baseleg on which you fly level at 500agl, then descend on final. (that's what I was told by CASA many years back).It does tend to defeat the purpose of making a very close in approach with a 'vertical profile' similar in principle to a standard circuit.

 

(2) What we teach in the low level courses is a racetrack circuit, slowing to 1st stage of flap extension on late downwind, with the descent beginning as you turn 'base' - but base is actually a descending 180 which brings you out on a 150-200 ft final. In this approach you never lose sight of the threshold, even when it's pouring and you are suffering some vis loss. We only do this on a nice remote strip within our approved low level training area.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Sorry mate but I believe that is still incorrect. This was another confusion brought about by blindly importing the US airspace model (see my earlier post) and, worryingly you aren't the only one who believes this. The 55kt ultralight does NOT have to give way to other aircraft !!!The Supplemental Guuidance Material for Operations at non-towered aerodromes clarified that they have no less right to use airspace or runway than any other aircraft. http://www.infrastructure.gov.au/aviation/airspace_reform/pdf/6pp.pdf

 

Cheers

 

John

G'day John,

 

just for clarity here, whilst such aircraft have no more nor less rights than other aircraft, I seem to recall that all a/c have to give way to those already established on final. Given the discussion that follows your post I think that this is important. You could well be turning final inside aircraft already on final if you take insufficient care.

 

CAR161 refers:

 

• An aircraft in flight, or operating on the ground or water, shall give way to

 

other aircraft landing or on final approach to land.

 

• When two or more heavier-than-air aircraft are approaching an aerodrome for the

 

purpose of landing, aircraft at the greater height shall give way to aircraft at the

 

lesser height, but the latter shall not take advantage of this rule to cut-in in front of

 

another that is on final approach to land, or overtake that aircraft.

 

• Notwithstanding anything contained in the paragraph above, power-driven heavierthan-

 

air aircraft shall give way to gliders.

 

Just for complexity my brain seems to tell me that a/c on a straight in final have to give way to other a/c.

 

The 2007 VFG gives the following but it is reserved pending review:

 

• An aircraft flying a standard aerodrome traffic pattern and established on

 

base leg or final approach for any runway has priority over an aircraft

 

carrying out a straight-in approach.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Hi All

 

The supplementary notes I linked earlier state "the current priorities that ultralights and all other aircraft have when in the circuit remain unchanged and aircraft on straight in approaches are still required to give way to aircraft established in the circuit". Seems pretty clear to me and its regretable that it was so ambiguous in the original procedures.

 

Sub 55kts ultalights are almost inevitably going to be high-drag, low-inertia types with a pretty poor glide ratio. Having to extend downwind to give way to other traffic is going to place them outside of glide distance from the runway very quickly. At a lot of airfields this doesn't leave any pleasant options in the event of an engine failure.

 

Hence its very possible that a slow ultralight may turn final ahead of another aircraft already established. on finals. I don't consider that this is inherently dangerous provided the slow ultralight is able to land & clear the runway without impending the other aircraft. It comes down to airmanship and the same qualities all pilots aspire to.

 

I couldn't agree more with Poteroo's comment that having right of way doesn't mean it always has to be exercised. I'm absolutely not advocating that - I don't do that and nor do I often see it happening.

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[poteroo]

It would be interesting to know if the authors of this 3 height circuit system are able to confirm that all 3 of them are standard circuits provided they are flown in a conventional 'square' manner. In which case then, the 55 kt aircraft flying the 500agl circuit has the same right-of-way as those at 1000 and 1500 in respect of aircraft on straight in approaches.

 

Given that the lower aircraft has right-of-way, then the 500ft circuit aircraft should always have precedence over those higher - unless the higher aircraft begins finals before the lower aircraft.

 

I don't think we have resolved all of these circuit right-of-way situations yet.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Guest Juliette Lima]

Hi all,

 

Been away for a few days and glad to see the follow up contributions...

 

The issue of constant height downwind is well taken....there are times when few aircraft are about, and from a height of 1000ft, again, close to the strip, I will pull power and do a full power off glide to the strip, mainly for practice.....this entails the remainder of downwind (a little), sometimes curved base (depending on wind) and final.

 

My initial query realtes to transmissions that might alert aircraft joining downwind across the strip, that I am downwind close to the strip....sometimes very close when about to practice a full glide from mid-late downwind, and 'visitors' decide to join crosswind at around 900-1000 ft.

 

As for cutting in front of an aircraft of final....never, unless in an emergency, however flying high drag aircraft invariably places me well outside glide range in a busy circuit and having to slot in with say three or four other aircraft.

 

When converting from gliders to ultralight, I took a week course in Southern Queensland in a Bantam....1000ft. circuits were constantly being flown 'inside' wider GA aircraft also training....however downwind was downwind, never 'in close' or any reference to position.

 

Cheers and thanks for the thought provoking responses.

 

JL

 

 

[Yenn]

I was always under the impression that you should fly the downwind at a distance that would allow you to glide to the field. That is what I was taught as a PPL pilot and I know that a lot of GA aircraft could never make the field if an engine failed on downwind. There are statistics to prove it.

 

I also believe that downwind should be flown at a constant height, which means not reducing height until you are on base. Then you can reduce height on base and would normally turn final at or above 500'. Now I may be wrong, but this means that slow aircraft will be turning final in front of faster aircraft. That is what the rules imply, although it doesn't look good. At least a slow plane turning final in front of a fast plane should be visible in the turn, unless the fast plane is nose up reducing speed and has poor forward visibility.

 

Maybe this could have happened to cause the mid air between a GA and RAaus plane earlier this year.