Sport Pilot

[skippydiesel]

Full disclosure - I have never use or intend to use, any fuel that I know contains E.

 

Having said that I still do not believe E damages the engine - yes! there can be issues with related components but these are parts of the fuel delivery and or metering system - not the engine.

And yes!  if you don't properly look after your small engines E fuel, there can be issues that you may not experince to the same extent with "straight" petrol. Again this is not the fault of the fuel - its the operator!

 

I think we should make a distinction between operator error (ie failure to look after an engine/fuel supply correctly)  a fuel supply system that may not be compatible with E and an actual problem with the fuel itself.

 

With fuel compatible O rings/gaskets/fuel hoses/tanks/sealants/etc there is no reason why E 10, can not be used in any petrol engine.

 

I chose not to use E10 because most of my small engines were built before E 10 was thought of. Without actually being sure, I assume their fuel delivery/metering systems are not compatible with E.  I don't want the hassle/expense of sourcing and installing compatible components, for nil performance or service life advantage.😈

Edited Thursday at 07:20 AM by skippydiesel

[spacesailor]

I refuse to fill the Pajero  will Efuel .

The reason is it sits unused , for extended time , allowing the fuel to separate. 

Starting , two or three months latter , it  could pump raw ethanol into the injector system. .

The damage raw ethanol  could cause to the engine is unknown . 

spacesailor

 

[turboplanner]

48 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Full disclosure - I have never use or intend to use, any fuel that I know contains E.

Well in that case IIRC when you said you'd never had any failures in your

 engines, it was seriously misleading to people who might be tempted to buy cheaper fuel, and it undermines the posters who have told people about engine failures in various parts of the system, PARTICULARALY carburtettors or have told people the specific fuels to avoid and the specific preventative measures to take. 

 

Of COURSE if you don't use any ethanol you won't have any ethanol problems.

 

As I've mentioned in previous posts, just turning off the fuel tap as Facthunter advised is not going to avoid the problem because there's still ethanol in the float bowl and evaporating in the galleries leaving its white powder. After a succession of starts there's enough powder to solidify and stop the engine - hence forced landing. Where the carburettor has blind galleries, it can be necessary to throw it away, and in quite a few older small engines there's no replacement with the exact same bore, exact same mount, exact same throttle cable location, exact same fuel tank moulded around the engine. In these cases, by using fuel containing ethanol, your only action is to throw the implement away whether a chain saw, rotary hoe etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[spacesailor]

The cost to repair my motors was dearer than the cheap replacement. 

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

Turbo,

 

Try not to; 

• Make accusations directly or by inference, that you can not defend.
• Suggest I have done anything other than give factual information, as I understand it.
• Repeat "ad nauseam" indefensible actions, where the owner/operator fails to look after his/her equipment, as they should and then blame the fuel.
• Repeat urban myths as fact. If Rotax accepts E10 can safely be used in their engines, the likelihood of your "white powder" deposits being a the result of E10 use  without any other contributing factors is diminishingly small.
• Fail to make a rational argument. That an owner use a fuel, that is not compatible with their engine or its ancillary systems, is the fault of the owner, not the fuel. Example for you: Owner puts diesel in a petrol tank - engine damaged. Owner can (irrationally) blame fuel all he/she likes , the fault is all theirs.

I clearly disagree with your advice "........have told people the specific fuels to avoid ...."

You seem unable to separate the fuel supply/storage (tank) delivery (hosses) metering system (usually a carburettor on small engines) from the engine itself -  do I need to spoon feed you?

While its is possible to damage the engine when one of the above fails, this is unlikly. If one or more of the the above, incompatible to E component fails, it can be replaced by a compatible component and the engine will run. If its so old that parts can't be found, why was it being run on E10????

Let any fuel go stale, in a carburettor, will likly result in a dysfunctional metering system (engine will not start/runs rough/stalls/etc) - preventive solution DRAIN FUEL (my preference) or use a fuel stabiliser (no experience). Corrective solution - CLEAN CARBURETTOR

If you are in doubt about the compatibility of your engine system to E  - DON'T USE E 10 (as I don't)

 

A very old saying ; The Bad Workman Blames His Tools

 

Once again, just for you - E10 is a perfectly usable fuel subject to the fuel delivery/metering system being compatible with ethanol. If as, you boringly repeat, your carburettor/other fuel system gets clogged with some form of deposit, your hoses/tank have disolved/rotted away, your O rings swollen/disintegrated, seals started to leak, you have;

• Failed to heed my warnings about E compatibility
• Failed to drain the fuel system completely before long term storage
• Failed to use a fuel stabiliser/storage enhancer

That E10 may not "store" as well/long (stay "fresh") as, say 91 RON, is a management issue. If you do not address the management of the fuel (as with any fuel) you may have problems "down the track" - this is not the fault of the fuel, it's a human problem. Put another way, ALL fuels have long term storage problems, particularly when open to atmosphere. The failure of the maintainer to recognise this and take steps to avoid/mitigate, is a human, not a fuel, problem.

 

That I recognise that most of my small engines, were produced before E10 became available, therefore may not be compatible with E  and I not wishing to take the risk, use only 91 RON,  illustrates the sort of management decision an owner should/could make.😈

 

[Flightrite]

I look at it this way, if you need to use E fuel of any description then ya gotta ask yourself, can I afford to operate any donk? Fuel is the known cheap part of operating a flying machine!

[facthunter]

Turbs you missed the Point. You make sure the TAP works  Properly.  Doesn't pass fuel and run the engine dry so there's no residual fuel remaining in the carburetter.. Ethanol is a water absorbing substance. as is Methanol..  IF you HAVE to use E take the extra steps .    Nev

[turboplanner]

8 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Turbs you missed the Point. You make sure the TAP works  Properly.  Doesn't pass fuel and run the engine dry so there's no residual fuel remaining in the carburetter.. Ethanol is a water absorbing substance. as is Methanol..  IF you HAVE to use E take the extra steps .    Nev

No I didn't miss the point; of course I ensured the tap was working; of course I ran the engine dry as you would do in say a two stroke lawn mower, but as others have posted that's not enough when ethanol or methanol are present. In racing, where the fuel is methanol the current practice at the end of the day's racing is to turn the fuel tap off, run to dry carb, connect a can of about half a litre of petrol to the carb and run the engine until that's gone through.

 

I've also followed the practice of taking all the carbies off after racing, shaking the last drips of fuel out and submerging them in a tray of [ethanol-free] petrol until the next race. 

 

With ethanol; if you don't want to be trying to clean out ethanol powder or solids blocking galleries which you can't get to with probes, compressed air or boiling the whole carb for a couple of hours, you don't use any petrol with methanol in it. 

 

Skippy talks about Rotax and ethanol tolerant engines and it's true that some carbs are manufactured by CNC drilling galleries and having screw plugs each end so you can open these and run a twist drill through the galleries with your fingers and ream out the solids, so not have any further issues; Rotax my have other solutions.

 

However, this is not a Rotax site and there will be thousands of Ultralites around Australia with carburettors of all descriptions which have been designed for cost and can't be cleaned out. In most cases new carbies are available; in others there are no new replacements available and no used ones in wreckers so you have to junk the engine.

 

With Ethanol the rule is pretty simple; if you don't like trying to clean out erhanol problems from the

[facthunter]

Thanks for the lengthy explanation . Note there is NO residue from Ethanol OR Methanol per se but there is likely water  absorbed in either that causes the corrosion with alloy carburettors,  that are not specially treated as many Magnesium (more corrosive) aero parts are. They should all be provided with a  bowl  drained from the Lowest point. (where the sediment collects).. Water anywhere in motors is  a problem with corrosion especially where dissimilar metals occur.  Nev

[spacesailor]

No fuel clocks on garden tool motors .

I'm,  now ' not strong enough' to pick up a four stroke mower to invert the fuel tank &  empty it.

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

2 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

No fuel clocks on garden tool motors .

I'm,  now ' not strong enough' to pick up a four stroke mower to invert the fuel tank &  empty it.

spacesailor

That's the reality most people face, so it makes sense to ensure no ethanol gets in the tank in the forst place. If you remove the cause of the prblem you don't have to fix the problem. Think of the people trying to upend a trike or motor glider.

 

As some others have said, if draining the tank is not realistic and the aromatics evaporate and the engine won't fire, add a small amount of new fuel and it will catalise the old.

[spacesailor]

The fuel was ( apparently ) contaminated,  ' greenish hue ' . 98 by the bowser .

Still have a few litres in a 3 litre milk bottle. 

My neighbours had the same problems.  

Luckily I hadn't tried to run the Hummel-Bird with it .

spacesailor

[turboplanner]

30 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

The fuel was ( apparently ) contaminated,  ' greenish hue ' . 98 by the bowser .

Still have a few litres in a 3 litre milk bottle. 

My neighbours had the same problems.  

Luckily I hadn't tried to run the Hummel-Bird with it .

spacesailor

There's a difference between the good and bad suppliers. Some bad suppliers put a lot of substitutes in to get the price down.

 

Shell Premium Unleaded 98 is Yellow.

 

Best to go on the net and get all the details on the brand, then you'll know.

[spacesailor]

Definitely green .

spacesailor

[Flightrite]

I spent 13 years with Mobil Oil, you’d be surprised the crap that’s in fuel especially diesel!

[kgwilson]

When your mower is ready for replacement get a battery electric one. No fuel, no oil just press the switch & it doesn't annoy the neighbours.

Edited 17 hours ago by kgwilson

[spacesailor]

I tried that .

But they are to small in cutting width .two days to cut the front then the back lawn .

Something like 10 inch blade 254 mmtrs .

I gave it to a granddaughter,  who swapped it for a petrol mower .

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, kgwilson said:

When your mower is ready for replacement get a battery electric one. No fuel, no oil just press the switch & it doesn't annoy the neighbours.

Sooo!

 

How good are these "press the switch" jobs???

 

Crazy I know, I have 5 ride-ons & two push mowers, ranging in size from 3hp-25 hp, up to a commercial level zero turn 60" deck. I have never purchased a mower - all are hopeless cases, that somehow come back to life (usually a carb clean does the trick) owners already moved on/purchased a new one.

I don't have a trailer big enough for the 60", so used mainly for maintaining our 3km street roadside verges.

For helping out at the airstrip, have nice Husqvarna 21 hp (made in China). Lots of power, has cruise control, poor lawn finish but good enough around aircarft.

Couple of Toro's that the wife likes to use around the house/yard. Do a good job.

One realy old metal bonnet Toro, waiting for a donor hydro transmission to appear - when working cut a beaut lawn. Can't get rid of it,  engine still good, unlike the modern versions "built like the proverbial brick S...H...." Anyone got a hydro transmission in good order (almost any lawn tractor style, up to about 17 hp, can probably be mad to fit)??

Two pushers are for finishing off, where the ride-ons can't access.

All run on 91 RON (would love a diesel), Annual oil changes/service. Do not cut wet grass, be generous with grease (especially spindle heads). Never wash down with water - use compressed air, to remove ALL chaff & dust, after every work period.

 

Will your battery job measure up????😈

 

[BrendAn]

5 hours ago, kgwilson said:

When your mower is ready for replacement get a battery electric one. No fuel, no oil just press the switch & it doesn't annoy the neighbours.

i bought a new aeg 58 volt mower, brushcutter and chainsaw about 4 yrs ago. all good for 2 years.  then one battery packed up. next the chainsaw died. ended up throwing the mower and chainsaw in the hard waste. still have the brushcutter , it works great. 

maybe other brands are better. i now use petrol mower again. the electric mowers  have a straight cutter bar. my masport petrol has proper blades like the old victas.

[BrendAn]

i have also bought an ozito line trimmer for the wife and an ozito edger. these are great for light duty work and the same batteries go in my ozito power tools. cheap but seem to work well.

[sfGnome]

I’ve got a Victa 72V mower and edger. About 5 years old now and going fine. Good wide cut (unlike the 18V Ryobi one my son was given which is absolute rubbish), and much lighter and quieter than my old 4 stroke. However, now that I have 1500 sq m of very fast growing kikuyu to mow, I got an electric Toro ride-on about a year ago. I can’t see me ever going back to petrol. 

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, sfGnome said:

I’ve got a Victa 72V mower and edger. About 5 years old now and going fine. Good wide cut (unlike the 18V Ryobi one my son was given which is absolute rubbish), and much lighter and quieter than my old 4 stroke. However, now that I have 1500 sq m of very fast growing kikuyu to mow, I got an electric Toro ride-on about a year ago. I can’t see me ever going back to petrol. 

I looked at the 72 bolt Victa when I bought the AEG. Maybe I should have chosen it instead. I was disappointed with AEG products failing so quick. I thought they were a top brand.