ATSB prelim report vid on The Oaks mid-air.

[Garfly]

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

What does this relate to?

[Thruster88]

I would appear that the Cessna 182 intended a landing at the oaks and had joined the down wind for runway 36. Why there were no comms from the 182 will probably never be known. Radio failure, wrong frequency, it may have given the pilots a false sense of security hearing nothing on the ctaf.

 

Not a fan of left and right circuits like we now have at cowra on 15-33 with all traffic to the west potentially going head to head. Traffic on a screen, could be a life saver or three.

[skippydiesel]

We will never know why the C182, with two experienced pilots on board, was;

 

Not calling on or apparently monitoring, The Oaks CTAF.

At circuit height.

If joining, was doing so on 36, opposite to established traffic on 18 (including the Jab he collided with).

 

His transceiver had been working, minutes earlier, on the Camden frequency - failed to switch over? selected wrong frequency? failure? (unlikly).

It was a Saturday morning in reasonable weather (moderate turbulence at altitude), normally busy with small aircraft movements,  why did the C180 pilots not think it was strange that they had no comms with The Oaks (which shars 126.7 with nearby Mittagong).

The Jab had a SkyEcho2, presumably the C180 had a operational transponder (would have been required to enter Camden airspace) how did ATC not see the two aircraft on a collision course?

How did the Jab pilot not "see" the C180 with his SE2 on iPad?

How did none of the 3 pilots see the other aircraft?

 

So many questions, that will never be answered - very sad for all.

 

 

 

[coljones]

On 20/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, skippydiesel said:

We will never know why the C182, with two experienced pilots on board, was;

 

Not calling on or apparently monitoring, The Oaks CTAF.

At circuit height.

If joining, was doing so on 36, opposite to established traffic on 18 (including the Jab he collided with).

 

His transceiver had been working, minutes earlier, on the Camden frequency - failed to switch over? selected wrong frequency? failure? (unlikly).

It was a Saturday morning in reasonable weather (moderate turbulence at altitude), normally busy with small aircraft movements,  why did the C180 pilots not think it was strange that they had no comms with The Oaks (which shars 126.7 with nearby Mittagong).

The Jab had a SkyEcho2, presumably the C180 had a operational transponder (would have been required to enter Camden airspace) how did ATC not see the two aircraft on a collision course?

How did the Jab pilot not "see" the C180 with his SE2 on iPad?

How did none of the 3 pilots see the other aircraft?

 

So many questions, that will never be answered - very sad for all.

 

 

 

You don't need a transponder for Class D or G.

[skippydiesel]

4 hours ago, coljones said:

You don't need a transponder for Class D or G.

Your point?

[BurnieM]

I understood that while the C182 had a transponder it did not have ADS-B.

 

The travel distance from Camden to the Oaks is very short and it would not take much to forget to change.

There, but for the grace of god ...

 

[Bosi72]

On 20/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, skippydiesel said:

How did the Jab pilot not "see" the C180 with his SE2 on iPad?

How did none of the 3 pilots see the other aircraft?

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2024/report/ao-2024-054

The report says APN had a Mode A+C transponder, which does not transmit GPS data, hence not visible to ADSB IN receivers; however, Mode A+C is visible to ATC.

 

Transponder is mandatory for controlled airspaces (A,C,D,E).

 

[440032]

No transponder is required in D. (because Class D eg Camden is not radar controlled airspace.)

CASR Part 91 MOS 26.68A sets out surveillance requirements.

[skippydiesel]

You guys did not read the JAB HAD AN SE2 and the C189 HAD A TRANSPONDER - do I have to explain further????😈

[Garfly]

On 20/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, skippydiesel said:

How did the Jab pilot not "see" the C180 with his SE2 on iPad?

Skippy, I think that is one of issues being argued.  ADSB-IN devices, like the SE2, can't "see" old style transponders.

In any case, for what it's worth, the ATSB report says that on-board video shows the Jab pilot looking outside on downwind, just prior to impact.

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Garfly

[Garfly]

 

On 20/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, skippydiesel said:

How did the Jab pilot not "see" the C180 with his SE2 on iPad?

 

By the way, for what it's worth, even if the Cessna did have ADSB-OUT, it'd have been against official RAAus advice to use an SE2/iPad in the circuit, anyway.

 

[The ATSB, on the other hand, seems keen for electronic conspicuity to be used to the fullest; way more trustworthy than our lyin' eyes.]

 

Ref.  the minute 1:01:45 to 1:02:45 in this RAAus video from last year:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JuW5yzC-j5M&t=3724s

 

 

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

22 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

By the way, for what it's worth, even if the Cessna did have ADSB-OUT, it'd have been against official RAAus advice to use an SE2/iPad in the circuit, anyway.

 

The Jab was returning from an aborted X country. The C180 from Camden circuits.  Dont know about you, my transponder & SE2, go on just prior to TO and are not shut down until after Landing (usually on taxiing in).

 

C180 (GA registered) would have had his transponder on, to do circuits at Camden.

 

Not that I get to fly with other pilots these days, however no recollection of transponders (once on) being shut down in circuit.

[Garfly]

3 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

The Jab was returning from an aborted X country. The C180 from Camden circuits.  Dont know about you, my transponder & SE2, go on just prior to TO and are not shut down until after Landing (usually on taxiing in).

C180 (GA registered) would have had his transponder on, to do circuits at Camden.

Not that I get to fly with other pilots these days, however no recollection of transponders (once on) being shut down in circuit.

Yeah, I agree!  For what it's worth, I don't hold to the official RAAus line - that is, generally to diss ADSB-IN devices. 

They seem very determined to stick to the "See and Avoid" doctrine (that's how I read that minute of their video [above].)

But do you accept that the Jab would not/could not have electronically "seen" the Cessna's (non-ADSB) transponder (even if he hadn't been looking outside)?

That's the only point of difference, I think.

[skippydiesel]

I guess so. Its rumoured that the C180 was scheduled for a refurb, part of which was a brand new transponder (ADSB - Out) sitting on a desk at Shellharbour/W Gong.

 

As for See  & Avoid - Yes this is very much the party line and will likly remain so, for aircraft without ADSB - IN plus automated aircraft proximity warning.

 

I endeavour to be a good See & Avoid pilot, aided by Comms, OzRunwys + SE2 (very recent) BUT am a skeptic, as to its efficacy, without having some sort of clue as to where tool look in the first instance.