Insurance for RA-AUS aircraft

[danny_galaga]

Now I have the Permit to Test Fly certificate, the next step is insurance. What am I asking for exactly. I just filled in an online quote but noticed it was for hull AND liability. RA-AUS already cover liability, right? So I guess all I'm after is hull?

[Farmpilot]

I personally have hull and liability to top up what Raaus provides as in today's litigious society, it may not be enough?? 

[danny_galaga]

BUt not necessary, from a legal standpoint? RA-AUS is 10 million public liability if I recall correctly. If I'm happy with that, legally I'm ok, and hull insurance only is fine? 

[Moneybox]

Insurance companies will avoid payouts wherever possible. If you have two policies for the same claim only one will pay out if anybody does.

[turboplanner]

7 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Now I have the Permit to Test Fly certificate, the next step is insurance. What am I asking for exactly. I just filled in an online quote but noticed it was for hull AND liability. RA-AUS already cover liability, right? So I guess all I'm after is hull?

That shows you the danger of just looking things up on google.

You need to actually make contact with people given your liability can be millions.

[SGM]

Our insurance is currently via Geoff Tonkin at https://insurancehouse.com.au/. 

It is 50% QBE and 50% Agile and is deliberately designed to "top-up" the RAAus insurance... specifically it has this clause 

"RECREATIONAL AIRCRAFT AUSTRALIA LIABILITY ENDORSEMENT It is hereby noted and agreed that coverage under Sections 2 and 3 of this Policy shall come into effect only after insurance available to You because of Your membership of Recreational Aviation Australia Inc. has been exhausted."

In our case the RAAus sub-limit of $250k for passengers was what we primarily wanted to increase.  Our view was that in the event of ongoing rehab required for a passenger, $250k would not last long.  There are a few others clarification etc in the top up document, like removing the pro-rata clause (which would mean the replacement of any avionics etc only calculated on estimated remaining service life) and coverage for forced landing transport costs.  I'll attach that full document here.

Note 1: Previously we had dealt with Sonya at Bill Owen Insurance (now trading as https://www.aviatorrisk.com.au/) - They also offered excellent advice and customer service, but at the last requote was just a bit more expensive.  I would speak to both.
Note 2: This year our premium did not go up - much to my surprise.

RA Aus Additional Benefits endorsement (latest).pdf

Edited 18 hours ago by SGM

[KRviator]

Unless you're determined to have no assets in the event of an accident, you need some sort of liability - RAAus provide $10M to others, and IIRC $250K to a passenger - but $250K won't go very far if you hurt someone, even through no negligence on your part.

Other options, "comprehensive" insurance in car terms is Hull - to replace your aircraft if you bend it. And Ground-Not-In-Motion, as it's name suggests, it'll replace your aircraft if it's damaged by a storm or hit by an errant student pilot, so long as your aircraft wasn't moving.

For an aircraft under $100K, I'd probably just go liability and Ground NIM and wear the loss if I bent it. I have $100K Hull on my RV-9 and that's about 40% of what I'd need to replace it one-for-one, but it's enough to get me airborne again in a Jabiru or an older and not-as-well-equipped -4 or -6 so I accept the differential. Gonna bump it up a bit next renewal though.

But a $2M+ liability insurance should be mandatory if you're carrying passengers.

[facthunter]

You shouldn't carry anyone not  essential on test flights.   Nev

[danny_galaga]

44 minutes ago, facthunter said:

You shouldn't carry anyone not  essential on test flights.   Nev

Yes, but I'm not going to insure it just for test flying, and then do the whole process again once that's done.

[facthunter]

Often the builder doesn't do the test flying. There can  be good reasons to do that.  Nev

[onetrack]

The best way to acquire adequate insurance is to contact a broker who either specialises in aviation insurance, or who knows which companies deal with aviation insurance.

Insurance for the likes of aviation is highly specialised and only a few insurance companies will take it on.

They need to be able to understand the risks involved, and this also involves the insured party making very clear what activities they undertake, how often, where, and under what circumstances, so the insurance company is properly informed, and can calculate the risk accordingly. A broker works for you, to get the best deal that properly covers what you want covered.

[skippydiesel]

As an RAA member/aircraft owner, I have the RAA insurance (public liability) as part of my annual membership fee.

 

On top of RAA, I have hull,  through Geof Tonkins (GT) (broker). My last premium was so high, I very nearly scraped the whole lot. In addition to my usual premium, was an offer of increased public liability - I declined.

 

We live in this crazy environment where we are scared into paying for ever more insurance, just in case.....!!!

 

Unless you are incredibly wealthy, I don't think it is actually possible to afford a, so called, "comprehensive" insurance policy. 

 

I don't know how often RAA level aircraft/pilots have a successful claim against them, I suspect not often. My aircraft carries a placard "Yout fly in this aircraft at your own risk............" My preflight checklist requires I draw their attention to the placard ;

Passenger Briefing

This is a Recreational aircraft; Its construction & maintenance standards are not as for Certified aircraft and may be below certified standards.

You-

Fly in this aircraft at your own risk

May not smoke in or near any aircraft

Must wear your safety harness, securely fastened at all times

Must obey the pilot’s safety instructions

Must not touch any controls

 Should you feel uncomfortable/unwell please let me know ASAP, so that I may do what I can to improve your situation.

 In the event of a forced landing;

Unlock your harness thus -

Operate the cockpit locks thus -

Exit the aircraft as soon as the engine is turned off consistent with your safety

Activate the PLB (location)

A basic first aid kit is on board (location)

 Mission details – duration, speed, altitude etc.

I understand that, in the event of a claim against me/my estate,  should I be found negligent, the above will provide little protection.

 

Not counting the RAA premium, over three years (since aircraft first registered) I have spent about 10% of the aircrafts new value, in insurance premiums.

 

I am  not sure that I will insure my aircraft next year - the premium is more than I would spend in operating & maintenance combined, for probably 2 or more years ( I try not to think about it).

[Moneybox]

Insurance companies thrive on our fear. We don't even have home insurance because they wanted more than it was worth if we included our prospecting gear and that's most likely the only items likely to go missing. How often over your lifetime have you had a successful insurance claim of any kind and how much have you spent on insurance?

 

We used a broker for many years while we were in business. We had a registered car yard so that we could plate and register our imports. We had the broker down to be sure we were covered for our stock, buildings, vehicles etc.

 

The first claim was for a tandem rental trailer that was stolen. That claim failed because being a vehicle each individual vehicle had to be covered our policy didn't do that.

The second claim was for the huge plate glass showroom front. That claim failed because glass had to be covered separately.

 

I cancelled both policies and carried the risk.

[turboplanner]

9 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

Yes, but I'm not going to insure it just for test flying, and then do the whole process again once that's done.

You can obtain Public Liability for a single event.

 

In this case, if the test pilot is injured or killed, the prop flies off during taxying and injures someone, a cable hasn't been connected in accordance with an Australian Standard and the airctraft crashes into a house/causes fire, injures people etc.

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

As an RAA member/aircraft owner, I have the RAA insurance (public liability) as part of my annual membership fee.

 

On top of RAA, I have hull,  through Geof Tonkins (GT) (broker). My last premium was so high, I very nearly scraped the whole lot. In addition to my usual premium, was an offer of increased public liability - I declined.

 

We live in this crazy environment where we are scared into paying for ever more insurance, just in case.....!!!

 

Unless you are incredibly wealthy, I don't think it is actually possible to afford a, so called, "comprehensive" insurance policy. 

 

I don't know how often RAA level aircraft/pilots have a successful claim against them, I suspect not often. My aircraft carries a placard "Yout fly in this aircraft at your own risk............" My preflight checklist requires I draw their attention to the placard ;

Passenger Briefing

This is a Recreational aircraft; Its construction & maintenance standards are not as for Certified aircraft and may be below certified standards.

You-

Fly in this aircraft at your own risk

May not smoke in or near any aircraft

Must wear your safety harness, securely fastened at all times

Must obey the pilot’s safety instructions

Must not touch any controls

 Should you feel uncomfortable/unwell please let me know ASAP, so that I may do what I can to improve your situation.

 In the event of a forced landing;

Unlock your harness thus -

Operate the cockpit locks thus -

Exit the aircraft as soon as the engine is turned off consistent with your safety

Activate the PLB (location)

A basic first aid kit is on board (location)

 Mission details – duration, speed, altitude etc.

I understand that, in the event of a claim against me/my estate,  should I be found negligent, the above will provide little protection.

 

Not counting the RAA premium, over three years (since aircraft first registered) I have spent about 10% of the aircrafts new value, in insurance premiums.

 

I am  not sure that I will insure my aircraft next year - the premium is more than I would spend in operating & maintenance combined, for probably 2 or more years ( I try not to think about it).

The question was about coverage for Public Liability.

[onetrack]

Remember that no-one can make a claim for compensation under a public liability approach until it can be proven that the insured (or uninsured) party is found guilty of negligence (or admits negligence) - and that the area where the loss or injury occurred, is accurately determined as a "public place". A "public place" is any area where the general public can reasonably be expected to be allowed to frequent.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

Insurance companies thrive on our fear. We don't even have home insurance because they wanted more than it was worth if we included our prospecting gear and that's most likely the only items likely to go missing. How often over your lifetime have you had a successful insurance claim of any kind and how much have you spent on insurance?

 

We used a broker for many years while we were in business. We had a registered car yard so that we could plate and register our imports. We had the broker down to be sure we were covered for our stock, buildings, vehicles etc.

 

The first claim was for a tandem rental trailer that was stolen. That claim failed because being a vehicle each individual vehicle had to be covered our policy didn't do that.

The second claim was for the huge plate glass showroom front. That claim failed because glass had to be covered separately.

 

I cancelled both policies and carried the risk.

Again, that's not Public Liability coverage, where things like your alleged, usually unintended, negligence need to be covered