Strobe, landing and wig wags questions

[Lyndon]

I'm building a VH Experimental. Is it a requirement to have any of the above. 

Thanks Lyndon 

[IBob]

Hi Lyndon, I can't answer as to what is mandatory......but I'm sure others here will know.
What I would say is that, now we are better understanding the limitations of the eye in 'see and be seen', they are definitely not something I would skimp on.

[skippydiesel]

Cant speak for VH/GA however as RA is still strictly VFR the answer is - No lights of any description/function are not required.

 

As for IBobs inference that lights will somehow assist in See & Avoid, the short answer is also an enfactic No.

 

In air to air (pilot looking out) lights have been found to be completely ineffective, except when viewed against a contrasting background eg dark cloud.

 

Having said the above, I do like lights, for their esthetic/look at at me, appeal.😈

[Lyndon]

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of the cost and complexity..

So it will have no lights at this stage.

Thanks Lyndon 

[IBob]

Skippy, I have to disagree with 'completely ineffective'.

For instance, you don't think landing light/s make an approaching aircraft more obvious when you are waiting to enter a runway???
What I would agree with is that typical/traditional wingtip and beacon lights are very poor in bright sunlight. Having said that, I have seen, a beacon so bright in daylight that I walked the 700M across the airfield to see what it was. That was on the ground. I'm pretty sure it was one of the Aveo products.
And you may have noticed that cautionary lights on road maintenance and emergency vehicles are now a whole lot more visible at distance than they used to be? The technology is getting better and brighter, and that will percolate through to aviation kit.

[Blueadventures]

18 minutes ago, Lyndon said:

Thanks.

I'm not a fan of the cost and complexity..

So it will have no lights at this stage.

Thanks Lyndon 

A good bright landing light is a must fit and use (in my opinion and experience), plus its good for taxi just on dawn to light up ground in front while taxing to the runup area.  Best for safety to fit one or two landing lights for this reason.  (Recent collision at Oaks is an example where maybe a bright landing light may have changed things.  I'm not saying either aircraft did not have a landing light lit.  Just that they will enhance your visibility in a variety of sky conditions and cloud backgrounds.)  I have an Aveo landing light on mine for these reasons.  Have a look at some local airfields were RAA aircraft land and see what they have and how they look.) Your choice and Cheers.

Edited December 29, 2024 by Blueadventures

[turboplanner]

I’d agree with Skippy that the lighting on recreational aircraft could best be described as “lite” and even the strobes disappear against some types of cloud, however GA standard where you need to have the red strobe turned off  while taxying, and powerful “landing” lights you can turn on for the circle can give you much greater safety in congested areas and circuits where half the traffic doesn’t know which height they are supposed to be at and where they should be. The additional benefit is you can point straight at an oncoming aircraft (when safe/far enough away and flash your landing lights. Over the years I’ve managed to get two coming in Head On, contrary to circuit direction to peel off and  rejoin the rest of us in the circuit.

[turboplanner]

I’d agree with Skippy that the lighting on recreational aircraft could best be described as “lite” and even the strobes disappear against some types of cloud, however GA standard where you need to have the red strobe turned off  while taxying, and powerful “landing” lights you can turn on for the circle can give you much greater safety in congested areas and circuits where half the traffic doesn’t know which height they are supposed to be at and where they should be. The additional benefit is you can point straight at an oncoming aircraft (when safe/far enough away and flash your landing lights. Over the years I’ve managed to get two coming in Head On, contrary to circuit direction to peel off and  rejoin the rest of us in the circuit. The discussions on this site over the last couple of years indicate a lot of people aren’t seeing other traffic

(Sorry, should have qualified the GA strobes as starting on Piper about the year the Warrior was introduced. Before that most were RA standard.)

[RFguy]

I think a bright headlight is very effective for seeing an aircraft coming down the glideslope , when when waiting at the holding point or turning at the runway end

I run my headlight whenever the plane is on the runway or airborne. and its bl00dy bright.  The headlight I have is excellent.

 

I think they should be compulsory  and an airworthy requirement. 

 

As for strobes on the tail and wings- I'd suggest the flashtube type........ LEDs are half arsed at best IMO, for wide throw strobes. 

The Blondel-Rey equation is not a good fit , despite this is what the LED people will have you beleive- as it was primarily for very short durations.

looking around the net for something so I dont have to write all about it I find :

https://airbornelights.wordpress.com/lighting-technology/at-what-cost-will-leds-replace-flashtube-lights/

 

certainly the LED beacons and anti-collision lights meet the FAA requirements but they're pissweak IMO compated to a flashtube.

The manufacturers for the LED beacons  are also cagey about their tech details ..... go figure

https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/9071/dot_9071_DS1.pdf

 

 

[facthunter]

Also consider painting your aircraft with an easy to see colour.  Dark colours are hot in the sun.  Ther rotating light should be no when you are about to activate the Plane. Nev

[facthunter]

 Some landing lights get very hot when on the ground. They can also be a big current drain on your Battery.  Nev

[skippydiesel]

Disagree all you like - Aircraft lights show up very well against a contrasting background. Most often this will be when viewed from the ground, leading supporter to point out how well they catch the eye.  In normal VFR conditions it has been demonstrated time & time again, they have little/no effect when viewed from the air (by pilot)

 

Ground based vehicles/hazard warning lights, are almost always viewed against a background.

 

The studies that have been done on this topic, relate to GA /certified aircraft. Some of the experimental LED systems deliver much higher lumens (?) than the certified equivalents however this is not going to significantly change the research, which is about the human eyes lack of ability to see airborne objects, from an aircraft.

 

Supporters will wax lyrical about lights delivering enhanced visibility at dawn/dusk, mist, etc - all non VFR environments. 

 

I like lights and wished they were a more effective system for enhancing visibility BUT a wish isn't a fact.

 

 

[RFguy]

good point Nev

Most people i know  in GA are installing the LED replacements for their sealed beams - I have a PARMETHEUS G3 SERIES LED LANDING LIGHT     01-0772102-10. which draws about one third of  the current of the incandescent light with more light and far far less heat...

Got from CJ Aerospace. 

 

skippy you dont take off from a real airport. LOL. a landing light on the glideslope at noon with the sun out  is chalk and cheese.

Edited December 29, 2024 by RFguy

[onetrack]

I'd opine that anything you can do to enhance your conspicuity - no matter how small the effect - has to be worthwhile, despite Skippys opinion that most lighting is worthless.

[440032]

Assuming day VFR (night and IFR are different)

CASR Part 91 MOS Manual of Standards

26.22 Anti collision lights as required by the aircraft type design. Experimental aircraft don't have a type design. I have no lights on mine, they are not part of the design. Therefore, fit them, or don't. Your call.

26.23 Landing light. No for day VFR. Fit one or don't - your call.

26.24 Nav lights. Aircraft operating in poor visibility must be fitted. (How poor is "poor"?) I don't operate in poor visibility VFR, nor should you. Fit them or don't - your call.

 

[facthunter]

Nav lights tell others which way you are  going.   Nev

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

I'd opine that anything you can do to enhance your conspicuity - no matter how small the effect - has to be worthwhile, despite Skippys opinion that most lighting is worthless.

I am not against aircraft light, I like them for their aesthetic show off appeal.

 

Safety is always a hot topic, almost all will have their opinion and personal standard (comfort zone).  In the real world we all make judgements constantly/risk assessment - can I get through the lights, when they have turned orange, start across the pedestrian crossing as the red light goes on, walk outside in a thunderstorm, ride a bicycle on a public road, etc. etc , ad infinitum.

 

My point is, at what stage do you say this is not a cost effective enhancement??

 

Onetrack will install his lights to get that last drop of perceived safety - great.

 

Me - One day, if I am feeling a little richer than today (after Christmas) I may install lights for the shear fun/bravado of them - they do look good. Fun aside , my transceiver & transponder(s) confer real safety benefits, not just for me,t all other aircraft in my vicinity.

 

Forget the pretty lights -

• All aircraft should have a transponder with a listening channel capacity
• All aircraft, operating in congested airspace, should have a functioning transponder. Preferably an ADSB IN/OUT bluetoothed to something like Oz Runways

 😈

[facthunter]

People are entitled to different  views. I can't see that lights are a "fun/bravado" thing though. .  Nev

[rgmwa]

6 hours ago, Lyndon said:

I'm building a VH Experimental. Is it a requirement to have any of the above. 

Thanks Lyndon 

None of the above are required for VH day VFR, but they are a nice-to-have and anything that makes you more visible is good, particularly in the circuit. 

[skippydiesel]

43 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

None of the above are required for VH day VFR, but they are a nice-to-have and anything that makes you more visible is good, particularly in the circuit. 

The point is, that there is little evidence that lights "....makes you more visible...." in day VFR conditions, when being viewed by a pilot in the air.

 

Sure people on the ground can see you "....in the circuit", how does this significantly improve airborne safety?

 

I agree "   they are a nice-to-have".😈

[rgmwa]

I was flying back to Jandakot south along the coast in the late afternoon some years ago and knew from his radio calls that a Mooney was approaching from my right at the same height on his was back from Rottnest Island. I saw his strobes much more quickly than I would have been able to see him otherwise at that time of day with the sun getting lower in the sky. I was easily able to avoid him but decided then that if I ever built a plane, I was going to have lights on it. I agree that most of the time you don't need them but if it prevents an accident or a near miss just once in your flying career, I'd say it's money well spent. 

[BurnieM]

Do you really want to skimp on lights ?

As a miniumum you probably want to run all the cabling for future lights and test.

 

Some of the options you are looking at are high end - Rotax 916 and Garmin G3X suite.

Personally I would go full LED from brand names.

 

Edited December 29, 2024 by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

2 hours ago, rgmwa said:

I was flying back to Jandakot south along the coast in the late afternoon some years ago and knew from his radio calls that a Mooney was approaching from my right at the same height on his was back from Rottnest Island. I saw his strobes much more quickly than I would have been able to see him otherwise at that time of day with the sun getting lower in the sky. I was easily able to avoid him but decided then that if I ever built a plane, I was going to have lights on it. I agree that most of the time you don't need them but if it prevents an accident or a near miss just once in your flying career, I'd say it's money well spent. 

The problem with stories like this is that Rgmwa already knew, in which direction to look for the Mooney, THANKS TO GOOD RADIO COMMUNICATION. His assertion "I saw his strobes much more quickly than I would have been able to see him otherwise at that time of day" is completely undermined by his good listening & the Mooney pilots transmissions. How can anyone possibly know that it would have taken a longer/shorter time, to see the other aircraft without empirical study.

We would all like lights to be a wonderful safety feature  but it just ain't so for day VFR.😈

[rgmwa]

Sure, I agree.  I knew roughly where to look, but how many times do you hear pilots say ‘looking for traffic’ when ATC or another pilot tells them where to look. Looking and seeing are two different things. I saw him because he had his wingtip strobes on and he was against a fairly dark land/sea background at around 5:00 pm. I have no doubt I would have seen him sooner or later without the strobes but he would have been a lot closer. He was also approaching more or less at right angles so not much relative movement against the background that would have made him easier to spot. It showed me the value of lights in certain circumstances. Good enough for me. 

[skippydiesel]

As I keep saying, I like lights, so support your decision to fit them. Unfortunatly I think your rational, for doing so, is just a wee bit suspect.

 

"I saw him because he had his wingtip strobes on and he was against a fairly dark land/sea background at around 5:00 pm."

 

The above statement supports my position - for lights to be effective ie seen by a pilot in the air they must be viewed in marginal light conditions and/or contrasting background - not your typical day VFR environment. Further; On the day in question when was "last light" in your part of Australia?  Given the light conditions described, were you flying in day VFR?

 

I would speculate: Most, if not all aviation authorities would not hesitate to legislate, for day VFR aircraft to have lights,  if there was a sceric of evidence to show that such laws would have a significant posative impact on safety.😈