Strobe, landing and wig wags questions

[rgmwa]

Please yourself about your position. My rationale works for me. You seem to want to fit lights mainly because they look nice. I suppose that’s a good reason. 
To answer your question, we were both VFR. Last light about 6:30. Some cloud around to the west. 

Edited December 29, 2024 by rgmwa

[skippydiesel]

Rgmwa -

I have attempted to give what I feel is the empirical rather than the emotive position.

The subject of aircraft lights always attracts strong support - its a no brainer good thing - right? 

Someone reading this "thread" need to know that despite the apparent safety benefits, the reality is a long way from what might be expected.😈

[spacesailor]

Especially for aircraft without  battery power .

spacesailor

[djpacro]

23 hours ago, 440032 said:

Assuming day VFR .... 

26.24 Nav lights. Aircraft operating in poor visibility must be fitted. 

Good, however I don't see that bit about poor visibility in the current MOS?

[rgmwa]

Skippy

i think anyone reading this thread will understand perfectly well that lights may help in certain circumstances but they are not required for day VFR, and should not be relied on to keep you safe. The example I gave was a one-off case where lights made a difference to visibility. That’s all. As you have already pointed out good radio communication and a good lookout are a lot more important. 

[440032]

2 hours ago, djpacro said:

Good, however I don't see that bit about poor visibility in the current MOS?

Well spotted! Usually I double check these things myself. They've changed it - deleted that bit. Who knows why they do what they do.

26.24 now specifies nav lights fitted for NVFR, and displayed (for NVFR).

No req for Day VFR.

[RFguy]

You can see a good flashtube strobe  at least 1nm in broad daylight... 

[djpacro]

51 minutes ago, 440032 said:

 They've changed it - deleted that bit. Who knows why they do what they do.

I guess there are more like us who ask CASA the meaning of stuff. Yes, the first draft was worse, it required all aircraft to have strobes or beacons.

[skippydiesel]

59 minutes ago, RFguy said:

You can see a good flashtube strobe  at least 1nm in broad daylight... 

If you know where to look😈

[440032]

2 hours ago, djpacro said:

I guess there are more like us who ask CASA the meaning of stuff. Yes, the first draft was worse, it required all aircraft to have strobes or beacons.

Yeah.... I seem to recall that.......

[Red]

On 29/12/2024 at 4:34 AM, skippydiesel said:

I am not against aircraft light, I like them for their aesthetic show off appeal.

 

Safety is always a hot topic, almost all will have their opinion and personal standard (comfort zone).  In the real world we all make judgements constantly/risk assessment - can I get through the lights, when they have turned orange, start across the pedestrian crossing as the red light goes on, walk outside in a thunderstorm, ride a bicycle on a public road, etc. etc , ad infinitum.

 

My point is, at what stage do you say this is not a cost effective enhancement??

 

Onetrack will install his lights to get that last drop of perceived safety - great.

 

Me - One day, if I am feeling a little richer than today (after Christmas) I may install lights for the shear fun/bravado of them - they do look good. Fun aside , my transceiver & transponder(s) confer real safety benefits, not just for me,t all other aircraft in my vicinity.

 

Forget the pretty lights -

• All aircraft should have a transponder with a listening channel capacity
• All aircraft, operating in congested airspace, should have a functioning transponder. Preferably an ADSB IN/OUT bluetoothed to something like Oz Runways

 😈

I remember reading a Canadian  paper on aircraft lighting that basically concluded the power requirements to provide a light intensity that made any difference was prohibitive for light aircraft, it was an old paper and LED lighting may alter that conclusion somewhat, but I doubt it tips the balance as they aint that much brighter than a good tube strobe.

 

From my own experience I cannot remember ever  noticing an aircraft light before I saw the aircraft itself.

 

I do have a strobe and landing light, they arent a legal requirement for my aircraft but I believe from various reading and my own experiences that Birds  having far greater visual accuity than us monkey brains probably do find them a help in spotting me and are more likely to get out the way (though it doesnt seem to make any difference to a certain Buzzard who just loves to play chicken when I'm on final for my home strip.)

 

P.S. I'm obviously only talking about Daytime

Edited December 30, 2024 by Red

[Arron25]

On 29/12/2024 at 4:20 PM, rgmwa said:

I was flying back to Jandakot south along the coast in the late afternoon some years ago and knew from his radio calls that a Mooney was approaching from my right at the same height on his was back from Rottnest Island. I saw his strobes much more quickly than I would have been able to see him otherwise at that time of day with the sun getting lower in the sky. I was easily able to avoid him but decided then that if I ever built a plane, I was going to have lights on it. I agree that most of the time you don't need them but if it prevents an accident or a near miss just once in your flying career, I'd say it's money well spent. 

When I did my training in the LSA55.. the little white Jab was Invisible the bright Western Qld sky...

EXCEPT for the Strobe on the tail... Could see that.. and once established identify the plane..

The marker lights are more for aesthetics (on boats🤡...) But a GOOD strobe on the tail is a personal mandatory

[440032]

5 hours ago, Red said:

 

From my own experience I cannot remember ever  noticing an aircraft light before I saw the aircraft itself.

 

Hmmmmm... I was thinking the exact same thing. I cannot recall ever seeing flashing strobe (or fixed) lights in the sky - before or after identifying a whole aircraft passing.

But yes, landing lights on final I think are useful and should be used if you have them.

[skippydiesel]

The way I "see" it is that we all expect/hope that lights will somehow improve airborne visual acquisition of another aircraft.

Our experience on the ground tells us that a light will grab our attention; of another vehicle, indicators, danger, traffic controls, room occupied etc, etc. A further reinforcer of this, is how well aircraft/lights can be seen from the ground - people forget that most often they know where to look first because they hear the engine(s) and/or they are a pilot, so look to the circuit, then the is dramatic view of an aircraft on final (again a known location/direction) with is landing lights on - what an entry!!!

So it goes against this experince/intuition, that they just don't work very well iday VFR conditions.

Many/most can't (?) separate their terrestrial experince from what happens in the air. Their expectation is so strong, they reinforce their own bias, by relating a story/event where suddenly they saw the other aircraft because it had flashing lights - in reality it is most likly they saw the aircarft & its lights at the same time, after their attention  was drawn to it location by a radio transmission.

 

[kgwilson]

When I built my aircraft I installed LED strobe on the wing tips. They are very bright to look at and most aircraft have LEDs now as the old tubes were expensive, caused radio interference if  not adequately suppressed and required a lot of power. I've seen strobes in the air but very rarely. See them on the ground always. Two landing lights in a wig wag configuration are very easy to spot when an aircraft is on its glideslope. The very powerful landing lights on commercial aircraft can be seen from a long way out.

[Garfly]

 

 

Theatrics aside, Skippy, landing lights on final are very often visible before the airframe that they're stuck to.

This is a big help for anyone about to enter who might have missed the call.

Not to mention, for tower controllers everywhere.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, Garfly said:

Theatrics aside, Skippy, landing lights on final are very often visible before the airframe that they're stuck to.

This is a big help for anyone about to enter who might have missed the call.

Not to mention, for tower controllers everywhere.

"In your dreams" my friend.

 

More likly you/the pilot have made that last look/check, straight down the runway & slight up, the glidescope,  before entering the active - WOW!!! that aircrafts lights shows up realy well. REALITY! the aircraft will be on final, perhaps a kilometer away,  silhouetted against the sky, you would have seen it anyway. This is a classic  bias reinforcement story. 

 

As for the tower - In most instances the tower will have a perfect view of landing/circuit traffic, light on/off. Also, if they are not asleep,  will know in what direction to look, with or without radio calls to assist. On final, the tower will be viewing, the aircraft, at some point, against the terrain (lights show up beautifully) So the combinator of knowing where to look, the all important obligatory radio calls (giving location/intention) is all the tower need in Day VRF.

😈

Edited December 31, 2024 by skippydiesel

[rgmwa]

3 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

Their expectation is so strong, they reinforce their own bias, by relating a story/event where suddenly they saw the other aircraft because it had flashing lights - in reality it is most likly they saw the aircarft & its lights at the same time, after their attention  was drawn to it location by a radio transmission.

Wrong again Skippy. No prior expectations and no bias reinforcement. I knew he was on his way back from Rottnest because he was talking to ATC and asking for traffic info around Fremantle which I was approaching in a 172, I saw his lights in the far distance and assumed they were attached to his aircraft which was much less easy to see until he got a fair bit closer. Anyway, have it your way. I'm getting a bit tired of this pot-stirring back and forth and I suspect others are too. People can make up their own mind about lights. I happen to think they can be useful at times. Even without that little episode, I would have put them on my plane anyway just because I like them. The extra switches on the panel look nice too.

 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

"In your dreams" my friend

😈

 

I'm pretty sure I have been awake.  Unless ...

 

Anyway, I'm not the only one:

 

"The FAA has a voluntary pilot safety program, Operation Lights OnPilots ... pilots are further encouraged to turn on their landing lights when operating below 10,000 feet, day or night, especially when operating within 10 miles of any airport, or in conditions of reduced visibility and in areas where flocks of birds may be expected, i.e., coastal areas, lake areas, around refuse dumps, etc."

 

airplaneacademy.com |

AIRPLANEACADEMY.COM

 

[skippydiesel]

"People can make up their own mind about lights. I happen to think they can be useful at times. Even without that little episode, I would have put them on my plane anyway just because I like them. The extra switches on the panel look nice too."

 

The only part of your statement I agree with.😈

[skippydiesel]

40 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 "..................in conditions of reduced visibility ......................."

 

airplaneacademy.com |

AIRPLANEACADEMY.COM

 

The key statement in that whole paragraph😈

[facthunter]

Don't you realise he's being sarcastic? Why is this so important to you, Skip?   Nev

[facthunter]

BRIGHT Lights and strobes DO stand out, even  in daylight.   Nev

[kgwilson]

When I was doing my GA to RA conversion at Coffs after the tower closed at 5pm I was taxiing and heard an RPT inbound call at Red Rock about 21 NM to the North. By the time I'd got to the holding point I could see the landing light probably about 10NM away. We'd acknowledged positions & intentions & was very easy to watch the approach and touchdown. I can't remember what it was just it was a twin RPT & on touchdown the pilot called me & advised he was turning off at an early taxiway & I could line up.

[onetrack]

There's no comparison between incandescent lighting and LED lighting for luminosity and penetration. I reckon LED lighting must have nearly double the visibility of incandescent lighting.

LED's output light over a narrower wavelength than incandescent, so the visibility is increased as compared to incandescent, which produces light over a wider range of the spectrum.