Super Koala with Rotax 582

[Taraz]

Hi Folks, Merry Xmas to everyone and hope you are all having a pleasant break.
I’m a first timer putting up a post here☺️. I’m building a Super Kola by Fisher Flying Products kit plane in Brisbane. It’s a two seater all-wood structure with a Rotax 582 reconditioned engine. I was wondering if anyone in Queensland has had any building or flying experience with this kit. When furnished it would look like this photo although this has a half VW engine on it. 
Regards

 

[facthunter]

They make a range of light and good looking aircraft. You'll have enough power but 2 strokes up front, stink.  (smell).  Nev

[Thruster88]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

They make a range of light and good looking aircraft. You'll have enough power but 2 strokes up front, stink.  (smell).  Nev

BS

[facthunter]

They stink wherever they are but in front of you in the normal place, it's hard to avoid it. FFS you get it in an Auster.  Piper cub  tiger moth etc and they don't have oil in the fuel. Follow a Goggomobile or any TS lawnmower. . Have you flown an avid flyer?  The name for TS bikes in the USA was "Stink wheels". They could never meet pollution standards. Use them while you still can but don't call BS on ME. They have a great Power to Weight ratio.. Nev

[onetrack]

The fuel-injected 2-strokes don't produce anywhere near the smoke of carburetted 2-strokes - but all 2-strokes do have a pungent odour in confined areas. If you can get plenty of air mixing with the exhaust, they aren't so bad.

Also, the smell is different between older 2-stroke "dinosaur" oils as compared to synthetic 2-stroke oils. The removal of a lot of "dinosaur" oil contaminants and using manufactured chemicals in synthetic oils must be a big factor.

 

I'm amazed, that in this day and age of miracle chemistry, someone hasn't invented a 2-stroke oil that leaves a smell like frying bacon, or frying onions. Imagine the sales leap, especially amongst the Americans!! 😄

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:20 AM by onetrack

[facthunter]

I'm more concerned about the health aspects of inhaling the stuff. Some synthetics are ester based and some are made from LNG. The Castrol R-30 is Castor and synthetic and it's particularly Horrible to be behind. What about the additives? Try breathing burning EP Gear oil... The fumes from CNC Cutting oil  will give you Cancer. Avtur has antimicrobials that are toxic and skin contact should be AVOIDED. Tars are cancerous Nev.

[facthunter]

You can't do a lot with the 2 stroke Rotax exhaust system . It's designed to enhance horsepower not particularly direct it somewhere.  Nev

[Underwood]

7 hours ago, facthunter said:

I'm more concerned about the health aspects of inhaling the stuff. Some synthetics are ester based and some are made from LNG. The Castrol R-30 is Castor and synthetic and it's particularly Horrible to be behind. What about the additives? Try breathing burning EP Gear oil... The fumes from CNC Cutting oil  will give you Cancer. Avtur has antimicrobials that are toxic and skin contact should be AVOIDED. Tars are cancerous Nev.

Even Oxygen can give you cancer, free radicals in every breath, we are all on a one way trip.

Im pretty concerned about the stuff we spew out to have our fun, but more because of what it is doing to the rest of the beings on our planet that dont even get any fun out of it and of course the planet itself

[facthunter]

Saying breathing oxygen is a risk, is a bit radical. In the big scheme of things the contribution of U/L's fuel to the words problems is not that significant. Oil contains weird stuff these days. Some fuels are risky before they are burned. Don't contact them or breathe them  combusted. THAT we can do something about.. That's why Dog gave us noses. To warn us of BAD things.  Nev

[BrendAn]

On 31/12/2024 at 4:32 PM, facthunter said:

They make a range of light and good looking aircraft. You'll have enough power but 2 strokes up front, stink.  (smell).  Nev

silly post. i thought you had flown 2 strokes. doesn't sound like you have with that comment

[facthunter]

Thrusters and Drifters don't have engines directly in front of you. The Thruster's is high above you. Denying they stink is ridiculous.. The oil and fuel injected modern ones use hardly any oil, but which  TS Motor available to us is Like that?.  Some Skyfoxes had 2 stroke motors and I mentioned the Avid flyer. The magnificent Sapphire is a sleek pusher (except for the ugly projecting exhaust system.).   Nev

Edited Thursday at 03:21 AM by facthunter

[BrendAn]

22 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Thrusters and Drifters don't have engines directly in front of you. The Thruster's is high above you. Denying they stink is ridiculous.. The oil and fuel injected modern ones use hardly any oil, but which  TS Motor available to us is Like that?.  Some Skyfoxes had 2 stroke motors and I mentioned the Avid flyer. The magnificent Sapphire is a sleek pusher (except for the ugly projecting exhaust system.).   Nev

i only have 582 on an xair experience and it does not stink at all. the only thing i didn't like was the oil spots on the tailfeathers.

[facthunter]

Because the Motor is above you, like a Thruster.  Nev

[Taraz]

Thanks folks for your comments. It’s obvious there are some strong views on using 2-stroke engines at the front. As I said I am a first timer in plane building and I’m happy to receive practical and constructive suggestions. 
With my plane, the exhaust pipe is under the fuselage below the engine firewall and I am expecting there would be little fumes getting into the cockpit. How about other makes like Lightwing 582? Do they have fume issue in the cockpit?

[Thruster88]

23 minutes ago, Taraz said:

Thanks folks for your comments. It’s obvious there are some strong views on using 2-stroke engines at the front. As I said I am a first timer in plane building and I’m happy to receive practical and constructive suggestions. 
With my plane, the exhaust pipe is under the fuselage below the engine firewall and I am expecting there would be little fumes getting into the cockpit. How about other makes like Lightwing 582? Do they have fume issue in the cockpit?

Any aircraft 2 or 4 stroke which has engine smell entering the cockpit is a problem due to carbon monoxide poisoning. Always a good idea to check with a co2 detector, they are very cheap. The 582 exhaust allows the tail pipe to be extended if required or an after muffler silencer can be added, this is a rotax part.

Edited Thursday at 05:29 AM by Thruster88

[facthunter]

 Most fabric covered and open cockpit planes get fumes some from slightly porous plastic  tanks, stubby exhaust pipe and engine beathing from blowby and it gets in anywhere as there's usually a low(er) pressure inside the fuselage than ambient  It can even enter where the elevators go to the fuselage. so a really long exhaust pipe may not cure it. The biggest concern is CO and you should have a detector for safety. What's going on here is about the smell of 2 stroke exhaust that I thought would not be contentious, but it seems to be.  I think we should be a bit more concerned with   fumes and bad smells than many seem to be.. 2 strokes are a separate endorsement with the RAAus. It pays to be sensitive to their Idiosyncrasies. The number about these days is a mere fraction of what it was in earlier times.   Nev

[BrendAn]

2 hours ago, facthunter said:

 Most fabric covered and open cockpit planes get fumes some from slightly porous plastic  tanks, stubby exhaust pipe and engine beathing from blowby and it gets in anywhere as there's usually a low(er) pressure inside the fuselage than ambient  It can even enter where the elevators go to the fuselage. so a really long exhaust pipe may not cure it. The biggest concern is CO and you should have a detector for safety. What's going on here is about the smell of 2 stroke exhaust that I thought would not be contentious, but it seems to be.  I think we should be a bit more concerned with   fumes and bad smells than many seem to be.. 2 strokes are a separate endorsement with the RAAus. It pays to be sensitive to their Idiosyncrasies. The number about these days is a mere fraction of what it was in earlier times.   Nev

the 2 stroke endorsement is just a money grab. it should be abolished.  having had both i can tell you flying a solid lifter jabiru takes a lot more knowledge than mixing 2 stroke fuel.

if you think fabric planes have fuel smells, try a jabiru. you leave the doors open when parked in the hangar to help the petrol fumes escape.

[facthunter]

Yes no early fabric plane I know of has plastic tanks, but there were others in the list. No way should the 2 stroke endorsement be abolished.  There's a lot more to it than mixing fuel.It's IN an aeroplane and plenty of 2 strokes fail. Extra knowledge can stop most of that. . IF you fly froma place where an engine failure wont bother you it's ok. If you have trees to climb over it really does.   Nev

[onetrack]

It pays to remember that any enclosed cabin that reaches speeds of around 40kmh or more, develops negative pressure inside the cabin. This applies to every cabin, whether it's aircraft, car, truck, item of plant, or what have you.

As a result, you must either keep the cabin airtight, or slightly pressurised, from air coming in from the front side. Failure to do so, will see your cabin fill with nasty and poisonous fumes. On the ground, on unsealed surfaces, over 40kmh, it will also be dust being sucked in. It's the reason exhaust systems on vehicles are not allowed to exit under rear doors in front of rear wheels, and the reason why you must keep your station wagon/hatchback seals in good condition.

[Blueadventures]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Yes no early fabric plane I know of has plastic tanks, but there were others in the list. No way should the 2 stroke endorsement be abolished.  There's a lot more to it than mixing fuel.It's IN an aeroplane and plenty of 2 strokes fail. Extra knowledge can stop most of that. . IF you fly froma place where an engine failure wont bother you it's ok. If you have trees to climb over it really does.   Nev

Agree; eg cold seizure,  Hot as well.  

[Red]

12 hours ago, Taraz said:

Thanks folks for your comments. It’s obvious there are some strong views on using 2-stroke engines at the front. As I said I am a first timer in plane building and I’m happy to receive practical and constructive suggestions. 
With my plane, the exhaust pipe is under the fuselage below the engine firewall and I am expecting there would be little fumes getting into the cockpit. How about other makes like Lightwing 582? Do they have fume issue in the cockpit?

Don't let the resident 'expert' put you off.

A properly installed and not-leaking pipe placed as you describe in the Koala should present no nasty niffs except perhaps a bit at start up before you get some airflow around your craft.

The whole reliability thing with 2 - strokes, well  I've only a couple hundred hours behind a 503 so all I can say is that perhaps they arent as care free to operate as the 912 and the cranks dont last too long

300-ish hours after which its  wise to monitor the big end play (not hard with the right tool) and have a look at the piston skirts through the exhaust port, if they have a partial seizure its often evident at this spot.

I've far more experience of off road motorcycle 2 strokes but I'll not muddy the waters with comparisons

Edited Thursday at 05:26 PM by Red

[facthunter]

Measuring big end play in a roller bearing Two stoke is NOT effective in predicting failure. The failure is by cage failure OR fatigue of the hardened surface. Both give little warning They DON'T wear out in the "Normal Sense". . Carbon under the ring grooves will make rings break up. Run it cooler and use a better oil..  IF you want to kill a 2 stroke, run it lean.

        Address me by my normal title if you don't mind. I hope ALL people feel free to post here whatever their opinion and we can kick opinions around without  risking character assassination... Nev

[Methusala]

Have to agree with Nev here. All should feel entitled to state their opinions freely. No one should feel obliged to accept that opinion, your judgement is paramount . Please,  no name calling. Don

[Red]

Not having that for one minute,  Nev is the one who frequently gets his panties in a bunch when someone counters his opinion with a different one.

 

 

 

 

 

[facthunter]

I just object to $#!t like what YOU posted above. I'll back what I post. Not what you THINK I posted. Nev