The last Years Fatality figures for the RAAus attract critical attention.

[Love to fly]

15 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Rough figures; the cost of a new GA trainer/cross country is $500,000 to $1.2 mil.

 

RA new $50,000 t0 $250,000

 

We need the different standard if the average person is to be able to afford to fly or hire relatively new AC.

 

RA should be viewed as other sporting activities are; the State police investigate the accident and provide the evidence to the State Coroner.

 

For non fatal accidents, RA people have to get themselves into gear and catch up with other hi risk sports which self-administer.

 

 

Plenty of GA students learning in VH registered slings, fox bats and similar.

[BrendAn]

bring on part 103.  casa want it. raaus don't. a lot of other countries have it and its gaining popularity.

single seat. keep away from busy areas and fly low 500 to 1500 agl. i would be happy with that, in the unlikely event that i got killed who cares, didn't take anyone with me.

[turboplanner]

4 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

bring on part 103.  casa want it. raaus don't. a lot of other countries have it and its gaining popularity.

single seat. keep away from busy areas and fly low 500 to 1500 agl. i would be happy with that, in the unlikely event that i got killed who cares, didn't take anyone with me.

Plenty of Australians fly that category, it's not called Part 103 in Australia.

Don't forget there are 9-11,000 members in RAA doing their own thing in their own groups.

 

[BrendAn]

are you talking about 95-10

[kgwilson]

Unless you crash in to a country fair or footy match. I don't think there is much difference between recreational GA flying and recreational 600kg and below flying. I've had a GA licence for over 40 years but built my aircraft and registered ii with RA mainly because I figured over time it would be more difficult to maintain a class 2 medical. Now we have class 5 self declaration medical & recreational licence. It took CASA 10 years longer than any where else, is completely different & it isn't valid anywhere else but then that is CASA all over.

 

When I left NZ in 2005 they had a recreational licence which did not require a class 2, allowed ageing pilots to keep flying the C172, C182, Piper Archer etc but with only 1 passenger, VFR & not at night. Also RA & GA aircraft are on the same register while administered separately and are allowed in to CTR if the pilot & aircraft are appropriately equipped & qualified. If my memory is correct the aircraft can have only 1 engine & weigh less that 5500kg. This makes sense to me.

 

The current situation is just bureaucratic BS IMHO.

[BrendAn]

cat g and cta endorsement will push raaus even further away from affordable flying than it is now.

[turboplanner]

39 minutes ago, Love to fly said:

Plenty of GA students learning in VH registered slings, fox bats and similar.

I just threw some broad figures up in the air so see if there was a distinction between the two groups going forward based on the cost of flying new or near new aircraft (hiring).

 

The current situation is like two chooks with their heads chopped off; they are going in all directions.

 

In GA there's one stream going into instructing then getting endorsements on bigger and faster aircraft, then getting into charter etc then getting on the bottom rung for RPT.

 

There's another hiring the aircraft they learnt on to do short distance cross-country, then as they can afford it, stepping up into touring aircraft with more radio equipment, retracts, C/S props, higher speeds for the Melbourne - Coober Pedy, Ayers Rock, Darwin, Nhullumbuy, Whitsundays and back.

 

40 - 60 years ago they could hire new or near-new aircrtaft to do this; some of them are now hiring 60 year old airctaft. The question with that group is how to get back to a new or near new touring aircraft today.

 

And there's the question of where your students learning on Slings and Foxbats fit in. Are they aspiring to what I've just described or are they forming a group similar to the top end of RA of limited cross country - maybe 2 or 3 hours max?

 

Then there are the levels of RA flying as some people have mentioned - quite a few levels which operate within their own fraternities.

[onetrack]

The ATSB has made their reasons clear on many occasions for not investigating after crashes - "the particular crash in question is not being investigated because no new findings will come from investigating it".

It will be the same old reasons discovered, over and over again - the old saying, "no-one has yet found a new way to crash".

 

The ATSB normally investigates crashes when public transport is involved (rail, road and air), and new lessons are to be learned, and improvements in training, maintenance, design, or transport control procedures can be refined and introduced.

[facthunter]

In RAAus you can design and build your own. (in theory) Good Tiger moth in Aviationtrader for 110K.  Nev

[Love to fly]

17 minutes ago, facthunter said:

In RAAus you can design and build your own. (in theory) Good Tiger moth in Aviationtrader for 110K.  Nev

You can do this in GA also. Many out there. 

[facthunter]

Yes you won't geta DH82 in under RAAus weight.Yet   Nev

[turboplanner]

Just came across this ABC video:   https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/string-of-fatal-recreational-plane-crashes-in-victoria-raises-questions/vi-AA1wVS6X?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=8694473924104e60bc0c310e0222985a&ei=51

Edited Sunday at 05:06 AM by turboplanner

[Neil_S]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

The ATSB has made their reasons clear on many occasions for not investigating after crashes - "the particular crash in question is not being investigated because no new findings will come from investigating it".

It will be the same old reasons discovered, over and over again - the old saying, "no-one has yet found a new way to crash".

 

...and yet they will investigate a fatal crash if the aircraft is registered GA - but not investigate if exactly the same type of aircraft is registered RAAus. How is that consistent??

Fortunately there are not many RAAus fatal crashes, so the lack of money/resources argument does not wash with me. 

IMO if there could be, for example, a design fault in the aircraft then there should be an investigation as further lives, GA or RAAus, could be at risk if it is not addressed. Why does it matter if the plane/pilot is RAAus or GA??

Where the reason is an obvious one, eg  running out of fuel, flying through cloud into cumulus granitis, flying into power lines doing low level stunts etc I agree nothing will be gained, but that is not specific to GA or RAAus, it is the same poor pilot decision making. Other crashes are not. 

 

Cheers,

Neil

[turboplanner]

53 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

Just came across this ABC video:   https://ww w.msn.com/en-au/news/australia/string-of-fatal-recreational-plane-crashes-in-victoria-raises-questions/vi-AA1wVS6X?ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=8694473924104e60bc0c310e0222985a&ei=51

Just recapping the figures presented in the written version of this:

 

Total: 27 deaths for 12 months of which just 6 were RA>

 

Yet a person has an engine failure in a GA aircraft, follows procedure and lands it and somehow this outcome has him saying he looks at some of these planes and shakes his head.....they worry him......he wants tightening of minimum standards for pilots and aircraft.

 

16 people were killed in GA aircraft, 6 in RA  - where should the head shaking be aimed?, what should he be worried about?, where's the ATSB investigation of his event?

 

The video goes on with "one of the concerns is different rules and standards for hobby aircraft and pilots."

Of course the rules and standards in RA are different to GA. The Rules and standards in GA are also different to RPT.

 

There's certainly something going on here that's not making a lot of sense.

 

 

[facthunter]

The entire article is a low validity level "pile on" I wonder if the person interviewed recognises the way it was made out to be. Having been involved in such things Media releases etc, I know what often "mostly" happens. Not all GA is investigated either. Whether there's a Pilot death is not always relevant. eg Crop dusting and aerobatics. 2 activities known to have a high risk aspect.. A speculative "IN"conclusion or a long delayed one either don't achieve much either. If you feel RAAus is "insulted" I'd wear that because any adverse event won't be portrayed in a good light by the media which thrives . on FEAR and sensation to make money. Any type faults that need addressing are often picked up before they cause tragic events if you do proper inspections etc. IF it's a cowboy effort and the person has been at it forever to eliminate those people will penalise  the good guys IF you aren't careful. and less will want to be bothered with it all.. Most people out there Don't care a fig whether you get allowed to fly or not. Realise that  The accident rate with our LOT wasn't high. That's the strange thing. Nev

Edited Sunday at 07:32 AM by facthunter
more content.

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Just recapping the figures presented in the written version of this:

Total: 27 deaths for 12 months of which just 6 were RA>

 

Yet a person has an engine failure in a GA aircraft, follows procedure and lands it and somehow this outcome has him saying he looks at some of these planes and shakes his head.....they worry him......he wants tightening of minimum standards for pilots and aircraft. //...

 

 

 

Absolutely, they  seem to worry him a lot ... even airframe parachutes worry him - a substitute for good piloting.

That must please his GA Cirrus colleagues a lot. 

I guess their training is never going to save their lives.   

Equally opinionated folks worry about other things, like the dangers of a GA fleet full of 40 or 50 year old machines.

And just look at that shiny RAAus, Bristell leading the story ... but a few years young.

What a messed up piece of crap-journalism.  

Training saved pilot's life

Pilot Keith Link from Cohuna in regional Victoria survived a plane crash after the engine of his commercially built Cessna failed mid-flight near Bendigo in 2020. He said his pilot training helped save his life but that more improvements in the sector were needed.

Pilot Keith Link survived a light plane crash in 2020. (ABC News: Tyrone Dalton)

Mr Link said he wanted licensed aircraft maintenance engineers to sign off on all aircraft after every 100 hours of flight or every 12 months.

"When I see a plane with a parachute attached to it, I sort of think that's a substitute for being a good pilot," he said.

[BrendAn]

13 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

Absolutely, they  seem to worry him a lot ... even airframe parachutes worry him - a substitute for good piloting.

That must please his GA Cirrus colleagues a lot. 

I guess their training is never going to save their lives.   

Equally opinionated folks worry about other things, like the dangers of a GA fleet full of 40 or 50 year old machines.

And just look at that shiny RAAus, Bristell leading the story ... but a few years young.

What a messed up piece of crap-journalism.  

Training saved pilot's life

Pilot Keith Link from Cohuna in regional Victoria survived a plane crash after the engine of his commercially built Cessna failed mid-flight near Bendigo in 2020. He said his pilot training helped save his life but that more improvements in the sector were needed.

Pilot Keith Link survived a light plane crash in 2020. (ABC News: Tyrone Dalton)

Mr Link said he wanted licensed aircraft maintenance engineers to sign off on all aircraft after every 100 hours of flight or every 12 months.

"When I see a plane with a parachute attached to it, I sort of think that's a substitute for being a good pilot," he said.

he flipped his Cessna on its roof after an engine failure  but he thinks everyone else should have their planes signed off.🤣

the other person saying too many young pilots getting killed. where are the records of that.

[turboplanner]

Good to see some people jumping in to defend RA.

 

Angus Mitchell, listed by the ASBC as an indonesian Linguist, was concerned about these hobby planes flying low and slow which is dangerous.

 

I flew some but was faster by several percent above stall to GA, amd these climbed faster and there are plenty of people on here who make a habit of flying at higher altitudes than I did, so it would be interesting to find out where Angus got this low and slow story.

[Marty_d]

It was on ABC radio this arvo too.  They keep pushing it.  I know they sometimes jump on a story and keep thrashing it, not sure why this particular one is retaining traction though.

[coljones]

12 hours ago, BrendAn said:

cat g and cta endorsement will push raaus even further away from affordable flying than it is now.

Cat G and CTA won't be compulsory just as high power and  nose wheel are voluntery - I'm not sure but you might be able to get an RPC with no endos at all - it all depends on what sort of flying you do.

[turboplanner]

 It seems Keith Link is a Councillor from Cohuna in Victoria

Cohuna Airport was taken over by the Cohuna Lions Club from Coliban Water in 2020.

Keith Link is quoted as saying its important for the town to have its air ambulance.

[BrendAn]

36 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

 It seems Keith Link is a Councillor from Cohuna in Victoria

Cohuna Airport was taken over by the Cohuna Lions Club from Coliban Water in 2020.

Keith Link is quoted as saying its important for the town to have its air ambulance.

The woman in the video used to be one of our councillors. Wellington shire.

[BrendAn]

1 hour ago, coljones said:

 

  I realise it won't be compulsory. The point I was making is raa is moving into the GA world .

[jackc]

While in the U.S. the FAA seem to be happy with the performance of its FAR Part 103 Aviation Sector, that has all, its rules on ONE A4 page, needs NO Pilot licence,  but manages all its own Training , in minimalist Aircraft, without FAA interference.

WHERE have we gone wrong? 

[turboplanner]

5 hours ago, BrendAn said:

  I realise it won't be compulsory. The point I was making is raa is moving into the GA world .

I wouldn't rule out this being the start of the GA pushback to the RAA moves. Right from the point where RAA Ltd was started a lot of the statements didn't make sense, but people were talking into the "we've outgrown the cricket club association model."

Now the members are trapped outside the Limited Company model and can't get inside and move it. The protective responses to the ABC video and stories should have happened already pointing out that of the 27 fatalities broadcast by the ABC in the name of "hobby aircraft", just 6 apply to Recreational Aircraft.