Putting a jab online ?

[Adrian Lewer]

hi all, i am thinking of buying a jab160 and wanted to know how you go about putting online. i figure if i use it for 2 hours a week training it will pay for itself ? any ideas ?

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

I have one online and you are spot on with the 2hr.figure

 

Obviously you will need a reputable “school” interested in taking this on.

 

In my case they pay all cost, full insurance, hangar and maintenance/

 

The craft is hired out at $160 dual and I fly it at half that wet which puts positive cash back in the pot for asset replacement

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

WOW i like the idea but hate the idea of having to hire my own aircraft and a learner like me flying my pride and joy.

 

but on the other hand after 5 years it will be mine :)

 

also i suppose i would have to consult a flying school and look at there requirements and what aircraft they would like...

 

do yo make some sort of contract with the school as to hours max to use it ect ?

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Yes contract in place regards the procedures to check pilots / qualifications of instructors/ hire solo / fly aways etc but no max or min hours. the more the better to my mind as the "profit" increases.

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

so what you are really saying is if i do put an aircraft online i can actually make a bit of money in the process ? i hear you on the screening of instructors ect, not sure if i would like the fly away bit...

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

yes -- depending on how busy the school is or if they have competing craft.

 

consider a syndicate share interesr with CFI or other instructor.

 

In reasonable usage I would expect the craft to make about 3k in the year. Mine is a Jab 160c

 

the fly away is ok provided it doesnt take from earning potential back at base

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

hummm now i am shining away from this idea... will have to have a good talk to a couple of schools within my area before i go making un informed decisions...

 

still might buy the X-Air ?

 

 

[Guest Bretto]

What's the go if you want to use it yourself whilst in possession of school? Doesn't cost you anything does it?

 

I see this as being a good way to buy an aircraft without having to actually pay for it and if school pays for everything as stated the craft is covered with insurance etc so if inevitable did happen you still wouldn't be out of pocket

 

Hmmm now you have me thinking, i was going to buy something around 30-40k mark for 1st plain as i could easily get loan for that amount and pay it off but this idea if set up correctly could source me a brand new plain that would of otherwise been out of reach

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

yes it will cost you admin. hangarage, insurance, registration. fuel, maintenance etc pro rata hourly cost as imdicated in post 2 above

 

 

[Guest Bretto]

yes it will cost you admin. hangarage, insurance, registration. fuel, maintenance etc pro rata hourly cost as imdicated in post 2 above

So your cost is $80p/hr when you use it plus fuel right?

Or am i reading this totally wrong

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

sorry

 

post got bypassed

 

Syndicate agreement is we contribute $80 per hr but craft is fuelled for that

 

 

[poteroo]

Ferret,

 

Hiring an aircraft out to a flying school requires a very mature business arrangement with them. It usually means that your personal needs come 2nd.

 

Look around at what local schools are charging for dual time on the J-160, then subtract $40-50/hr off that for instructor payments. Then subtract around $5-8/hr off it for management of the aircraft by the school. That is the absolute maximum they are likely to pay you for wet hire on the aircraft. If you wanted dry hire - subtract 15 x $1.75 = 26 off that number.

 

My suggestion is that you could be looking at something like $150 less $50, less $7, less $26 less GST as your dry hire charge = $61/hr.

 

Many schools are charging out much less than $150, and my guess is that you'd be most unhappy with what they offered you for dry hire.

 

Don't be misled by all the optimism - where a school cross-hires your aircraft it's usually done on an as required/dry hire basis. That means you have to keep it insured and maintained up to school standard. Think of your $4000 annual insurance just for starters - that's $20/hr @ 200 hrs hireout/yr......just for starters.

 

Whilst a flying school may be able to offer you an estimated hours per year utilisation, I think it unlikely that they would commit contactually to that - there are just too many unforseens in aviation.

 

My experience is that you might be better to offer a school an aircraft which complements their existing training fleet, ie, something they could offer on hire to Certificated pilots for longer trips. Longer trips mean less bashing about the circuit in student hands, less wear and tear, and better engine care.

 

happy days,

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

hummmm maybe a jab 230 :) i have decided that buying an aircraft to put online will not suit me. maybe as a second aircraft but not as my first.i will want to fly to often, and on top of that i am looking at an aircraft that will not suit any of the schools i know of.

 

thanks for the info guy's i feel you have led me to the right decision.

 

 

[Guest Bretto]

If you intend to do lot of flying then yes you would probably be better off keeping it for recreational use as payments @ 80p/hr as stated above for example could end up costing you more than running costs of plain

 

eg. 25hrs @ 80p/h = $2000p/week

 

No way it would cost that much in payments, fuel, insurance etc for the week

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

The $80 contributes also to build funds for replacement. I could fly it and pay less into the fund, or adjust the payments pro rata profit from the flying schoold, fuel cost etc but choose not to.

 

 

[vic1405]

Syndicate? - Maybe!

 

Hi Ferret, I'm new to all this but I would have thought it better to buy a new - say 230 jab amongst 4 people and share all the costs. If new cost is all up 100K = 25K per person plus running costs per year - say 4K insurance plus all other costs associated divided by four .... You just cover your fuel and put an agreed figure in the tin to cover future replacement of the aircraft ? I'm not qualified in any way with these figures I'm quoting - But I would personnally want to know who is in the aircraft. If anyone has the actual figures it would be good to make a comparison.

 

Any way thats my two cents worth.. :big_grin: :confused:

 

 

[Ultralights]

i have one question, i have been thinking along similar lines, but just where do you get finance for a new J230?? the only reason i am considering this is i am now debt free, (and house free). and have a new instructors rating, so i will be working weekends as an instructor and still have a good paying full time job... yeah, any good finance companies out there that specialise in such ventures?

 

 

[vic1405]

I'm not sure what your financial situation is or your credit history? Usually the commonwealth bank will give a personal loan. If you have the income to support it,

 

I'm not sure if they would give much more than 20 - 30K without some type of collateral. My son has borrowed from them and my daughter as well for car financing.

 

I not sure if you would get it or not but it costs nothing to ask the question. The Commonwealth Bank is always offering to do this and that whether it is a overseas holiday or whatever. Definately easier if you have a property for collateral ....

 

Give them a call nothing ventured nothing gained If you were in my area (Langwarrin) it would only take four people to get together with the 25K each and we would have a nice shiny new 230c Jab ;) ;) with all the trimmings .. :) If you get it it wouldn't take to much to draw up an agreement legally binding to each of the four individuals to protect their interests .........

 

 

[Guest brentc]

You would likely need a business to be set up before you can get the money, as in your own company. Some income would be a nice to have if you are hoping to secure a loan.

 

I would also consider a J230 to not be suitable for a training machine, especially if that was going to be your only aircraft at first. 6 cylinders use more fuel and there are 2 more pots come rebuild time, plus reliability issues when compared to the 4 cylidners. Students won't want to pay for the extra when really they only need something smaller. Not unlike learning in a 172 when you could learn for less in a 152.

 

 

[Ultralights]

basically i already own my own company, which i traded uder during my time as a courier contractor, so the company is no problem, my income is over the 60K mark, with a full time 4 day a week job, and my credit rating is perfect, no debts, not even a credit card... so now im seriously looking at finacing a new aircraft... my short list for a training aircraft is obviously the J230, Technam or i have just been told the evector sportstar is good in the training environment also..

 

im not real keen on the personal loan idea, as the interest rates are usually quite high, so a leasing type arrangement might be better, as you would do with a new car. is there any well know and reputal people who do leasing for aircraft? i have noted that technam aust has a contact...

 

 

[Guest brentc]

The obvious one for Jabirus is LeaseAir.

 

I still question the J230 - no comparison to the Tecnam or Sportstar in terms of running costs. I'd be surprised if there are schools out there running a J230 as their primary aircraft. Those with J230's would usually be using them as a second / spare aircraft for NAVS and Private Hire.

 

 

[vic1405]

Hi Brentc,

 

I wasn't suggesting it be used as a trainer, I was suggesting that it would be a way of having a great aircraft to fly in at 1/4 of the cost ie: sread between 4 shareholders all only having to raise 25K each and only paying 1/4 ofthe maintenance costs etc, which most banks would lend as a personal loan as long as their day job could cover the cost of the loan. It could be a J170 @79K or LSA @59K...

 

I used the 230c only because that is what I would like .... Is this getting confusing??? Anyway like I said I am no expert and it was only my view on having an aircraft without having an unlimited amount of beginners flying it. You will be able to get to know all 3 others and share the available flying time with a roster or whatever it takes to keep all 4 smiling ....

 

 

[vic1405]

Bank rates on personal loans are approx 13% I believe... On 25K = $3250 Interest over 1 year I thought that the lease arrangements were about 9% but you have to have the aircraft as security which might make it difficult to setup for the other shareholders if any that may have cash to put towards the purchase. They may not want the finance companies name on the ownership papers. So you would then have to purchase by yourself at whatever price paying the 9% say on 100K = $9000 per annum plus all running costs insurance etc etc...$$$$$$$$ Just food for thought i_dunno

 

 

[Guest brentc]

vic1405 - sure thing, I was referring to Mr. Ultralights suggestion of using the 230 in a school.

 

I agree, the J230 is a great machine for private ownership when you don't need to make cash from it. I know a bit about them, you have no doubt seen my J400 at Tooradin when you are there. There is an amateur build J230 that hangs around between Tooradin and Leongatha - you may have seen that around now and then.

 

Speaking of which - checked out a factory J230 on the weekend. Empty weight 396 kilos!

 

 

[Ultralights]

i have seen and heard of a few J230s online, i just completed my Instructor rating in Wallys at Narrandera, next weekend i will be renewing my Night VFR in a J230 at Camden, as well as getting back up to speed with CTA flying with a Nav to Canberra and back into Sydney for orbits over the harbour at night..

 

the intended purpose of a J230 if i buy one (when) is to put it online as a trainer, 2/3 of its time, and the rest will be used as a personal aircraft for myself