refueling high wing planes

[tangocharlie123]

I was wondering what is the best way to fuel a high wing plane from Jerry cans..

 

any comments and ideas

 

thanks

 

Peter

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

Best advice Peter is to try and avoid doing so if possible!

 

Far better to invest a few dollars and a bit of effort and make yourself a simple but decent set-up that will not damage the aircraft nor yourself.

 

For many years in my flying school I used the following system.

 

A 60 litre drum and a light sack trolley to move it around on easily.

 

Weld a threaded collar to the opening in the drum (do not blow yourself and the drum up in the process).

 

The collar should fit a hand 'wobble pump' with a standpipe (so you are feeding from the bottom of the drum) which screws into the collar and so is stable.

 

Next a length of hose that is long enough to reach from the drum to the tank intakes.

 

This makes re-fuelling easy and you can usually put in measured amounts once you have worked out the stroke capacity of the pump. eg on mine it pumped exactly one litre per each full stroke so 20 strokes and you had 20 ltrs.

 

Also use a static line with crocodile clips each end to earth the aircraft to the drum.

 

Tony

 

 

[Guest Macnoz]

Hello,

 

Gee where to start on this.

 

Type of wing material and can material would prompt different answers to how to eliminate any potential difference between the two during refuel. Answers would range from as simple to rest can on wing to wear IT type static wrist band connected to planes metal bits, in turn connected to ground.

 

Wing material would also influence whether, in the absence of a platform higher than the wing you could consider siphon rather that funnel etc.

 

Fuel type Avgas / Mogas /Mogas with ethanol/ diesel would also influence approach.

 

Last weekend I observed a respected PE selected a plastic jerry can from a line up of 7 identical looking ones, in a busy multi occupied hangar. He walked to one of his three different types of aircraft, seemed to change his mind as to which craft at the last moment, procure a set of steps and then fill the only rag and tube type up a la lawn mower, can sideways, no funnel, no wipe off spill over. My nose got the better of me and after departure I checked to the cans and found 3/7 had avgas.

 

My ears tell me he took off in a Rotax and my eyes told me he first approached a Jabiru. Ok so both power plants can run either assuming proper tuning but what chance of mix up.

 

My biggest fear of cans is akin to the kids who get poisoned drinking bad stuff out of good containers in the garage.

 

Sorry if the answer rambled and maybe wasn’t an answer at all but it might prompt yo to explore further

 

 

[Guest bateo]

I don't think there is an easy/safe way of doing this.. I had to do this at Louth Races last year..A mate took some Jerry's with him, I let them sit 'unshaken' for a few hours and shined a torch down them to check for water contamination- Not that I could see all areas of the bottom, but it was better than nothing- I also did this before take-off as well, of course! I then backed the ute up to the wing, hopped on top of the ute and filled the aircraft.. This could have been prevented if I had've organised Fuel in Cobar or Nyngan but... I gathered this was the easiest solution.. All in all I got home safe with much fuel to spare!

 

 

[Guest aircraft1]

The best way is a small electrical pump like is used by Pipistrel and Storch. It takes about 15 minutes to fuel the plane but there is no damage and no spilt fuel !

 

Also filters everything a few times by the time your engine uses the fuel also.

 

 

[storchy neil]

small pump that is used in the flysynthesis storch and pipistrel is the best way fuel is filtered going in at the last entry point pleanty of time to do your walk around neil

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

i've done heaps of refuelling from drums. hard work. best hand pump is the Mcnaught rotary type.

 

as you said you want to refuell fromm jerry cans. plastic ones i suppose?

 

first if you are using any type of plastic drum before you use them again, DO THIS. get a 1/2 inch stainless steel bolt washers x2 and a nut. drill a close tolerance hole for the bolt a couple of inches from the bottom of the can on one of the narrower sides and fit the bolt and washer from the inside and then fit the other washer and to the outside. tighten and seal from leaks.make sure fuel can touch head of bolt fit a good quality wire and clamp and use this to earth bond the jerry can to the aircraft. now you can safetly pump or syphon the fuel into the aircraft. if you want to make life real easy. make a cap for the jerry can that has a fitting to fit a hose that will go from the cap to the bottom of the can. continue this (make sure no air leaks) hose to reach the fuel tank.(double barbed bulkhead fitting) then also in the cap fit a tyre valve fitting . fit cap to full jerry can put hose in tank attach cheap 12volt tyre pump to valve and turn on, your fuel will pump up to the tank, don't add to much pressure to the jerry can. half inch hose is big enough. hope this is of help and that you don't blow yourself up.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Guest aircraft1]

You have got to be CRAZY.... this was covered about 12 months ago in the RAA or Pacific Flyer magazine.... The compressed air going in generates static or similar. We were warned AWAY from pressurized fuel filling unless youre making a flame thrower !

 

 

[jetboy]

i've tried a few ways including an electric pump which tended to get more fuel outside than in. The deluxe way would be a vehicle mounted mini refuelling station with nozzle and the car parts outlets have a (cheap plastic) version of this I have not tried yet. EAA magazine used to feature them in the adverts section.

 

I now use 20L plastic cans plus a couple of 10L. For the 20L I sit them on a foam rubber pad over the wingspar area and drop a siphon hose in. While thats going on I use a Mr. funnel on the other side with the 10L containers and the residual from the 20L that doesnt drain. It takes practice to avoid overfilling this is where a conventional nozzle would be graet. Just pumping up via an open hose is a problem as there is residual fuel to handle as well.

 

Allways prefer airfield fuel stations because there is some hassle in transporting the cans around too, but for now I have to do it manually.

 

The static is generated proportional to fuel flow & velocity, so I havent done anything special to the containers, one method is to fit a throughbolt with metal brazing rod down into the container, for earthing, but you'd need to do this for every container ever used to be sure it would make a difference. Probably more risk filling the containers in the first place.

 

Ralph

 

 

[newairly]

I would not fill any plane from a container without using a "Mr Funnel" to catch contamination, especially water. They are also made of conductive plastic which reduces risk of sparking.

 

Phil

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

jetboy has got it right as to static being generated. pressurising to less than 5psi would do didddlysquat. only danger is from too much pressure causing rupture and no earthing. But doing a lift and jerk with 20kg of jerry can seems like more fun.

 

there are also non static producing hoses available for this type of use.

 

The fuel tank on the lazair uses a simple pressurised system to prime the lines to the pumper carbs and help preventing power failures on climb out due to air bubbles forming in the lines.

 

my old man was more accurate with time travel, he was always going to knock me into next wednesday.

 

 

[CLAYT]

How do R22 OR ANY CHOPPER get away with landing beside a 44 or200L and not shut down or earth or any thing.This is in the middle of the paddock-have seen it 100s of times.Alluse mcnaught rotarys asdo i. CLAYT.

 

 

[ab0767]

Clayt

 

A) the legs on the chopper are grounded (on the ground)

 

B) the drum is grounded (on the same ground)

 

C) the hose is special non conductive plastic stuff

 

Planes have this rubber stuff they make the tyres out of that insulates the plane from the ground potential causing a potential difference with the drum that can cause a tiny spark - and it only takes a tiny spark

 

 

[CLAYT]

makes sense thanks mate:faint:

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

Add my 2 bobs worth, cause I can ;)

 

Some of the comments above scare the hell out of me. So, here's my 2 bobs worth:

 

1. Jerry cans totally suck, no matter how you do it. Get the wrong Mr Funnel, and you're screwed too. Remember, BLACK is good for static...ORANGE isn't! I once bought an orange one from a boating place....bad idea. Also remember, if you add pipe to extend the funnel into the tank, it has to be anti static too, and there's a dfference between anti-static and non-conductive fuel hose. Saw someone recently replace a hose on a MacNaught hand pump with fuel hose the supplier assured him was "appropriate" since it was "non-conductive". Every time he turned the pump, sparks snapped between the hose and the aircraft! Had used it for weeks before I heard the crackling, and commented on it. Turns out the hose was the wrong type!

 

2. There is a very good reason why fuel pump manufacturers don't sell electric gasoline transfer pumps. Diesel pumps, yes, due to it's low volatility. But check out any pump manufacturer site like Alemite, or MacNaught, and you'll see nary an electric gasoline transfer pump anywhere. Never. Ever. Reason? BOOM factor! Static! Badda Boom! Yes, I hear they do it on the Storch. I also bet the Storch manufacturers spent a hell of a lot of time and effort making sure it was as "safe" as possible. If it was easy as rigging up a small fuel pump inline to some cable and hose, waking it in a jerry can, attaching it to a battery and tuning it on, everyone would use it! I'd also bet that anyone working on their own plane is unlikely to cover all the possible danger factors when designing their own system. I've SEEN the consequences of using a normal electric fuel pump to transfer fuel, in a marine situation, when a guy I knew tried that crap. Badda Boom didn't even come close to describing what happened, athough "spectacular" did. As far as using a system to electrically transfer gasoline from a motor vehicle mounted storage container to an aircraft? That is beyond insane! Go there, and you're burger meat!

 

3. Vaccum/compressed air systems? Covered before.

 

4. I've tried lots of hand pump options too. Including cheaper hand pumps, that are more hassles than they're worth, for both 60 and 200L drums. Honestly, in the end, spend the money and invest in decent equipment. A MacNaught rotary hand pump with attached filter is (1) made for the job to reduce static (2) will filter your fuel to the highest level for both contaminants and water and (3) is worth every cent, since it primes easily, and can remove fuel from your tank if you need to drain it. Stick it in a clean 44 gal drum, on a pneumatic wheel trolley ($20 from Super Cheap auto), and a 2 person frig around job suddenly becomes a one person easier job. Yes, you'll spend $6-700 on it all. You also won't be dead, your plane won't be in ashes, and you won't be featured in the RAA mag as the moron who blew himself up fueling his plane! ;)

 

Here's the best pump I've ever encountered on the market. Basically bullet proof.

 

http://www.industrysearch.com.au/Products/Hand_Operated_Fuel_Transfer_Equipment_GP_Rapid-Flo-17752

 

Scott

 

Grinz. Although if you want a cheap Alemite rotary hand pump, I'll sell you one. Used twice, before I bought the MacNaught Rapid Flo GP. Cost me $120. Make me a reasonable offer, and you can have it. It's in perfect condition, for 60 or 20L drums. ;)

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

I back up my comments above on electric trasfer pumps with the following:

 

MacNaught fuel transfer options site. Notice no electric gasoline transfer pumps anywhere!

 

http://www.macnaught.com.au/sub_level.php?ref=Fuel_Transfer_Equipment&bc=Lubrication

 

Same thing on Alemite:

 

http://www.alemite-lubrequip.com.au/Default.aspx?tabid=65&Cat=Fuel

 

Check out the options, from 2 of the biggest pump manufacturers in the world. All the electric transfer pumps are for diesel only.

 

 

[jetjr]

JERRY CAN pumps!!

 

Guys,

 

I couldnt agree more regarding the Rapid flo and filter, I bought one this year and its brilliant. 205 drums its great

 

BUT the question was transfering from Jerry cans, I have this problem too and there has to be a easy solution. What about little diaphram pups used in automotive fuel transfer uses?

 

JR

 

 

[Guest Rocko]

As I said above, it's a risky way unless you have everything absolutely set out right. As they said above, any fluid flow generates static. Higher the flash point of the fuel, the more risk that static can cause a fire. Build up a bit of static in the hose, pull it out of the Jerry can, and there's your problem. Drier the air, windier the day, risk can go up. Again, it's why diesel doesn't have the same problem. I went the whole Facet fuel pump idea early, tried to get info on it from the manufacturers, noone would say anything apart from it was a very bad idea.

 

Mind you, if you DO find an easy system, please let me know! :) I HATE jerry cans! ;)

 

 

[Admin]

I have tried to stay out of this due to advertising but as the shop pays to keep these forums available free to you all have you thought about one of these:

 

http://www.clearprop.com.au/index.php?target=products&product_id=29853

 

 

[jetjr]

fuel txr

 

Ian,

 

Yep use them nearly every day.

 

Problems are that fuel has to be above tank, so on a high wing this makes it hard. Also tend to get crud inside them between uses - could plug em up I guess to stop this.

 

Check out a couple of product I just found on the net

 

Facet Fuel it

 

Goat throat

 

Commercialized products to do what we are discussing, both slow but made for the job

 

JR

 

 

[Admin]

I use 20 litre plastic jerry cans that have a plastic nozzel plus a little 2 step ladder and simply pour the fuel in - it's all plastic.

 

I know a lot of people just place their 20 litre plastic jerry can on top of the wing and use one of these Syphon Mates - you just place one end in the plastic drum, the other in the fuel tank and just jiggle the Syphon mate and it starts flowing - seeing many others do this is the reason why I sourced them for the shop.

 

 

[tangocharlie123]

Facet Fuel It

 

Thanks for the input..

 

Like Jetjr I too found the Facet Fuel-it the problem is that to me it is to slow for the application but then Rocko has a valid point the faster the flow the more static.

 

Ians soulution is good but I'm not into Gym work not lazy just wise.

 

The Facet fuel it is approx $120 aud at the moment from aircraft spruce in the US. no cost on freight or could not get one.

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetFuelit.php

 

Thanks again and keep it all coming.

 

can somebody tell me are these onboard fueling systems patented or copyrighted.

 

ps

 

Put a wanted info add on this subject in things for sale only got 1 reply

 

Peter

 

 

[Admin]

Thanks for the input..Like Jetjr I too found the Facet Fuel-it the problem is that to me it is to slow for the application but then Rocko has a valid point the faster the flow the more static.

 

Ians soulution is good but I'm not into Gym work not lazy just wise.

 

The Facet fuel it is approx $120 aud at the moment from aircraft spruce in the US. no cost on freight or could not get one.

 

http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppages/facetFuelit.php

 

Thanks again and keep it all coming.

 

can somebody tell me are these onboard fueling systems patented or copyrighted.

 

ps

 

Put a wanted info add on this subject in things for sale only got 1 reply

 

Peter

If you want one of these then I can get a price on it for you from Wicks

 

 

[jetboy]

the storch uses a little inline pump in the belly of the aircraft I had a look at the club one yesterday there is an inline tap and receptacle external, and they just clip a short hose down into plastic cans and turn the pump on and walk away (not sure if this is a safety measure or to pass the time) They actually fitted a different pump there for some reason I dont know if its better.

 

I'm also curious as whether the fuel tap is essential or backup like if it gets knocked on in flight does that drain your fuel? If I was to copy this idea I'd prefer a shutting off type release coupling. Mr Storchy can you enlighten us?

 

The facet style pumps do take time but so does the siphon and funnel act which I had to do again today and I think the built in Storch system is relatively safer.

 

I can handle 10 L direct pour from my ladder but 20L too difficult and too heavy to rest on the funnel as that would badly load the tank $$$ the siphon works fine just always do this outside and not too windy day.

 

Agree the proper hand pump is best but getting 2 60L or a 220L drum out to the field and off the vehicle is another mission.

 

Ralph

 

 

[storchy neil]

hi jetboy two pumps one to lift fuel into tanks this pump is for that purposs only no fuel does not drain back through the tap if is left on but turn the tap off as them pesky little insecs like to get in there

 

the second is your fuel to motor is set after fuel cocks

 

as some have have said it takes awhile to put fuel in but you do your walk around at the same time neil