Weight & Balance question.

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, skippydiesel said:

My apologies in advance if this solution has already been suggested; OzRunways has a nifty weight and balance calculator, that can be configured/personalised for your aircraft. Once configured, you only have to put in the variables (fuel quantity/weights in location) and it tells you if your aircraft is within/out - simples!😈

 

That sounds good however I first had to understand the process and method of calculation. I'll have a test coming up and to pass that I'll have to do it manually.

[facthunter]

As I've mentioned W&B has a pass mark or 100% in ALL the exams that I've had to do.. Nev

[Moneybox]

6 hours ago, 440032 said:

That excel chart you sent makes no sense to me. (the "empty plane" bit) I've done a similar chart for my own plane and seen many others, I understand what you are aiming to end up with, a good usable chart.

I think it is now time for you to seek help from a professional WCO _ Weight Control Officer - an industry person accredited by CASA to do this stuff.

Loading is not a thing to guessing or relying on advice from experts on some forum on the internet. Some will be correct, some will not.

 

 

I'm confident I have it right. The empty plane bit has an ARM back from the leading edge. The weight at that point is the entire weight of the empty plane with 2.9L of unusable fuel. ARM x Weight = Moment. Total moments / total weight gives the CG. 

 

Empty weight determination
The empty weight of an aircraft includes all operating equipment that has a fixed location and is
actually installed in the airplane. It includes the weight of the painted airplane, accumulator, standard and optional equipment, full engine coolant, hydraulic fluid, brake fluid, oil and unusable
fuel 2.9 l. The aircraft is weighed without crew, fuel and baggage. 

 

Anyway if you guys are calculating W&B before each flight then your opinion is more important to me than the expert (ex is a hasbeen and spurt is a drip under pressure) who learned it from a book.

 

 

[Moneybox]

Interpret this as you wish.

 

 

I take this as allowing me to install a larger tank as long as I alter the load W&B label as instructed elsewhere in the manual.

 

[skippydiesel]

While its important you understand the principal, the main objective is passing your exam - don't start introducing variables, like altering the empty W&B. KISS principal!

 

As far as 4.5.2.2 goes - likly a poor Czech to English interpretation OR  a larger fuel tank was/is an optional order.

 

As for installing adjustable position load rails, no need, KISS again - Know your Max weight for the location, weigh the stuff, heavy items as far forward in the baggage area as you can (if no passenger, on that seat), lighter stuff aft. 

 

When you have your Certificate, you can then ponder W&B  loading 😈

 

[Moneybox]

4 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

As for installing adjustable position load rails, no need, KISS again -😈

 

 

That was just added to get a reaction after the suggestion of moving the Datum to an invisible position forward of the spinner 🤣

[skippydiesel]

Ah!

[rgmwa]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

Interpret this as you wish.

 

 

I take this as allowing me to install a larger tank as long as I alter the load W&B label as instructed elsewhere in the manual.

 

I think they mean make sure the total weight doesn't exceed 600 kg MTOW (for LSA), but obviously also keep the C of G within the acceptable range. They could have worded it better.

[Moneybox]

33 minutes ago, rgmwa said:

I think they mean make sure the total weight doesn't exceed 600 kg MTOW (for LSA), but obviously also keep the C of G within the acceptable range. They could have worded it better.

 

Maybe but why mention adding fuel to a larger tank if that option doesn't exist?

[djpacro]

10 hours ago, Flightrite said:

This subject can be over thought in some ways. Simple solution is work out the worst case rearward CoG and Fwd CoG with these  numbers/weights handy and use them as a limit, anything less weight wise is obviously ok👍

Not necessarily. My POH for the Sportstar states "Minimum weight of crew ... 55 kg". It is not the only aeroplane where the loading system requires ballast with petite pilots.

 

2 hours ago, Moneybox said:

 

I'm confident I have it right. The empty plane bit has an ARM back from the leading edge. The weight at that point is the entire weight of the empty plane with 2.9L of unusable fuel. ARM x Weight = Moment. Total moments / total weight gives the CG. 

....

Anyway if you guys are calculating W&B before each flight then your opinion is more important to me than the expert (ex is a hasbeen and spurt is a drip under pressure) who learned it from a book.

Yes, I think that you have it right too.

 

But I'm a "has been", of course. Weight Control Authority for about 40 years. 

[rgmwa]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

 

Maybe but why mention adding fuel to a larger tank if that option doesn't exist?

The option for adding more fuel exists. As I read it, all they are saying is keep everything within the weight (and balance) limits.

[Blueadventures]

3 hours ago, Moneybox said:

Interpret this as you wish.

 

 

I take this as allowing me to install a larger tank as long as I alter the load W&B label as instructed elsewhere in the manual.

 

Looks like there was an option for a larger factory tank and the document was a general print version.  Maybe worth contacting an agent or factory in Europe and they may have details of your aircraft build.

[djpacro]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

 

Maybe but why mention adding fuel to a larger tank if that option doesn't exist?

Perhaps there is a factory option and an associated flight manual supplement?

I believe that you have a 24 series registration "FACTORY BUILT TYPE ACCEPTED 95.55" which obliges you to follow specific rules about any modifications to the aeroplane OR .... not.

[Red]

nt, sORRY AN EDIT TURNED INTO A DOUBLE POST

Edited February 10 by Red

[Red]

Just now, Red said:

Not necessarily, there are different specs in different countries and even between models and years.

It also comes down to your regulations, for instance in the UK the difference between a factory Eurostar microlight and Light aircraft previously came  down to whether or not a backup electric fuel pump is fitted (the weight was that close.

You need to contact whoever oversees airworthiness regulation and the aircraft maker.

 

[Moneybox]

5 hours ago, djpacro said:

Perhaps there is a factory option and an associated flight manual supplement?

I believe that you have a 24 series registration "FACTORY BUILT TYPE ACCEPTED 95.55" which obliges you to follow specific rules about any modifications to the aeroplane OR .... not.

Yes that’s true however in the service manual for this particular aircraft it gives me instructions to reweigh the plane after any additional weight or accessories are fitted. Then it says I should reprint and fix a new W&B placard. 
From my point of view it’s saying, go ahead and do it but do it right. 

[Red]

That doesnt mean put as much weight in as you want as long as you weigh it and stick a placard up, obviously it has a ZFW and MTOW that must be adhered to

[djpacro]

6 hours ago, Moneybox said:

.... any additional weight or accessories are fitted. .... From my point of view it’s saying, go ahead and do it but do it right. 

and doing "it", the approval of a change, "right" for a "factory built type accepted" aircraft, especially an LSA is where all the work is

[Moneybox]

3 hours ago, Red said:

That doesnt mean put as much weight in as you want as long as you weigh it and stick a placard up, obviously it has a ZFW and MTOW that must be adhered to

How I love acronyms 

This is the first time I’ve heard of Zero Fuel Weight. Yes of course these weights a balances apply but it appears to me that the written data supplied with the plane gives some latitude for alterations to be made while still staying within legal limits.

As I stated earlier this plane is going to registration unmodified however if I need more fuel to cover the cover the long distances between airports out here it looks like the option might be there to add it.  
The same plane, same fuselage, engine and control surfaces is carrying twice the fuel in later models however the MTOW is up from 550kg to 600kg.

[BurnieM]

Sportstar 550kg MTOW

Sportstar Plus 575

Sportstar Max 600

 

[skippydiesel]

Empty weight (Zero Fuel) is dependent on what systems have been added/order with the aircraft.

Most manufactures publish a low empty weight, so that they can claim a high payload (passengers, luggage, fuel). Then they tell you you can fit the aircraft out with a range of non essential (for legal flight) extras, that will then increase the empty weight, detracting from the payload.

Your aircraft is factory built, came with /without factory fitted extras - you are not supposed to modify it, without factory authorisation. 

 

IF your aircraft is registered as a 550 Max TO, thats the legal permissible weight.

IF later aircraft went to 600kg Max TO, the factory may authorise an increase (on application) for your aircarft - this will not only depend on their good will, also any changes that may have been made to later aircraft, to allow the weight increase eg later aircraft may have had a wing tank option, structural upgrade, stronger undercarriage, etc

 

Fuel load can be varied, to allow for heavier Pax/luggage WARNING this will reduce your still air range, meaning additional fuel stops may have to be planed.😈

[BurnieM]

As a factory built aircraft would the factory approve an increase in the size of the single tank ?

Possibly they would approve the wing tanks if you fitted the later model wings but now the cost is getting right up there.

 

Looks like you can carry fuel in portable tanks/cans as long as it is non-commercial and no passengers.

Not suggesting this is a good idea. Anybody care to comment.

 

[skippydiesel]

"Looks like you can carry fuel in portable tanks/cans as long as it is non-commercial and no passengers.

Not suggesting this is a good idea. Anybody care to comment."

 

The carriage of extra fuel has a long history. Even today aircraft are "ferried" (ie flown) long distances with the aid of additional  temporary fuel tanks (usually bladders).

I would be surprised if there is any legal restriction on the carriage of additional fuel. Obviously there is a increased risk in doing so. Common sense would suggest that the fuel be carried in robust containers, well secured against turbulence/rough landing, etc.

Fuel extending bladders can be purchased from the likes of Turtle Pack https://www.turtlepac.com/products/air-drop-fuel-bladder/

most of the Turtle Pack offering, is designed to allow in-light fuel transfer - you don't have to use this feature. If you do it will have to be plumbed into your existing fuel reticulation system.

Personally I don't like rigid fuel containers - space is at a premium in my little aircraft, they take up as much room empty, as full. I use 20L x 2 collapsible bladders - mainly to fetch ULP from the nearest service station. 

My flight plan across AU has highlighted that I may need to be able to fetch 60L at a time from the servo, so will need to purchase a third bladder or make an additional trip.

 

😈

[Blueadventures]

5 hours ago, Moneybox said:

How I love acronyms 

This is the first time I’ve heard of Zero Fuel Weight. Yes of course these weights a balances apply but it appears to me that the written data supplied with the plane gives some latitude for alterations to be made while still staying within legal limits.

As I stated earlier this plane is going to registration unmodified however if I need more fuel to cover the cover the long distances between airports out here it looks like the option might be there to add it.  
The same plane, same fuselage, engine and control surfaces is carrying twice the fuel in later models however the MTOW is up from 550kg to 600kg.

Best to contact the manufacturer or agent for upgrade info.  For example early Foxbat 22's where high 400 kgs and with upgrades went to low 500's but unable to upgrade to 600kgs.  The lower / earlier ones had metric fasteners and the 600 kg variants now have AN hardware and beefed up in other areas.  Alos the 600kg Nynja have AN hardware in upgrade kits and thicker brackets, upgraded strut build and brace wire size.  Seems LSA requires AN  hardware now.  Yours may be a similar situation, I don't know about them.

Edited February 11 by Blueadventures

[Moneybox]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

"Looks like you can carry fuel in portable tanks/cans as long as it is non-commercial and no passengers.

Not suggesting this is a good idea. Anybody care to comment."

 

The carriage of extra fuel has a long history. Even today aircraft are "ferried" (ie flown) long distances with the aid of additional  temporary fuel tanks (usually bladders).

I would be surprised if there is any legal restriction on the carriage of additional fuel. Obviously there is a increased risk in doing so. Common sense would suggest that the fuel be carried in robust containers, well secured against turbulence/rough landing, etc.

Fuel extending bladders can be purchased from the likes of Turtle Pack https://www.turtlepac.com/products/air-drop-fuel-bladder/

most of the Turtle Pack offering, is designed to allow in-light fuel transfer - you don't have to use this feature. If you do it will have to be plumbed into your existing fuel reticulation system.

Personally I don't like rigid fuel containers - space is at a premium in my little aircraft, they take up as much room empty, as full. I use 20L x 2 collapsible bladders - mainly to fetch ULP from the nearest service station. 

My flight plan across AU has highlighted that I may need to be able to fetch 60L at a time from the servo, so will need to purchase a third bladder or make an additional trip.

 

😈

There are not a lot of service stations where you can park your plane in the driveway. Do you have a strategy for moving those 60L to the airstrip during your cross country travels?