American Airlines collision with Blackhawk helicopter. Crashes into Potomac River

[kgwilson]

Quite a few holes lined up in the Swiss cheese model.

 

Late change of runway for the RJ to a much shorter runway requiring a right turn before left hand line up.

Vertical separation was only 300 feet maximum & the Blackhawk was above the maximum allowed 200 feet at 300 feet while the RJ was descending from 500 feet.

Blackhawk was on a different frequency & couldn't hear the RJ.

Blackhawk confirmed visual of the RJ exonerating ATC.

Blackhawk confirmed it would pass behind RJ.

Aircraft & City lights tend to blend in to one another.

Blackhawk pilot may have been using NVG & if so had no real depth perception & could have identified another aircraft behind the RJ thinking it was the RJ.

TCAS is disabled below 1000 feet & no aural warnings below 500 feet.

 

That's 8 identified by Juan Browne and there could be more but all those factors add up to a recipe for disaster.

 

 

 

[red750]

Hero pilot Captain Sully shares terrifying theory on why DC plane crash happened:

 

Hero pilot Captain Sully shares terrifying theory on why DC plane crash happened | Daily Mail Online

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

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Sully, who famously landed a passenger plane on the Hudson River in 2009, has said that two factors could have made avoiding the chopper harder.

 

[red750]

MARK MCEATHRON: I'm a Black Hawk helicopter pilot. This video shows all the red flags that led up to the deadly DC plane crash | Daily Mail Online

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

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I'm a former Black Hawk helicopter crew chief and flight instructor. I know how quickly a routine flight can turn into a terrible tragedy.

 

[Blueadventures]

The Air Traffic Controller will need a lot of support; not good if doing two persons task; which was their priority / rostered task and covering another at the same period due to short staff level; will be interesting to hear about.  RIP and support to all involved and affected.

[Thruster88]

We now know the helicopter was flying the 200ft or below route along the river. Looking at the chart, the passenger jet has to cross the helicopter route while descending, about 3/4 mile from the threshold of 33. 3/4 mile would put the jet at about 200ft yes? An accident waiting to happen. 

[onetrack]

And at that point, the CRJ700 crew are on final, and focusing on landing and instruments, and most certainly NOT expecting ANY aircraft to be anywhere near them.

And ATC procedures are poor there, by not giving specific advice to the heli crew, as to where to look for the location and direction of the CRJ700.

Finally, the bottom line, why would you have no vertical separation between the aircraft? It's like ATC set them up to collide, instead of keeping them 500 feet apart.

[red750]

A grief-stricken widow who lost her husband on American Airlines Flight 5342 when it crashed in Washington DC has revealed they made a spontaneous decision on who would be on the flight. 

 

Natalya Gudin and her husband Alexandr Kirsanov coached two young figure skaters but only one of them would accompany the pair to Kansas for the National Development Camp for figure skating.  

 

Her husband was the one who ended up making the trip alongside the two kids, who all lost their lives in the midair collision. 

 

Speaking with ABC News, Gudin said: 'I lost everything. I lost my husband. I lost my students. I lost my friends.'

[red750]

All the catastrophic mistakes that led to DC plane crash as it is revealed air traffic controller left tower early | Daily Mail Online

WWW.DAILYMAIL.CO.UK

---

An air traffic controller at Reagan National was left to handle both helicopter traffic and manage planes - which should have been a divided duty.

 

[BrendAn]

23 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

He is a disgusting opportunistic troll. 

It amazes me how a country of 300 million don't have better options for president.

[w3stie]

This rather long commentary showed up in one of my feeds:

 

The author’s name is J.R. Rudy. He raises several issues I haven’t heard before, including the crosswinds that were swirling Wednesday night and the lack of a safety observer on the Black Hawk’s training mission. Beyond that - I’d rather let him speak for himself, unedited.

 

I am responding to your recent note about input from pilots regarding the DCA crash.

I could go on for hours about this but will condense it the best I can without too much unsupported speculation.

 

I am a retired aviation professional with nearly 40 years of flying experience. The first 8 years I served as a Fighter Pilot flying the F-14 in the US Navy from aircraft carriers. Collateral duties included service as a Landing Signals Officer (the tower for the carrier) a Standardization Officer. 

 

I was one of the primary investigators into the mid-air collision of a TopGun F-16 and one of my squadron's F-14s. No jets or lives were lost.

After leaving the Navy, I flew domestically and internationally for Delta Air Lines for over 30 years, the last 20 out of JFK.

 

I have flown into DCA [Reagan National] countless times as a pilot, though not recently. I did land there about a week ago at 1130p, as a passenger, landing to the south flying the River Visual 19 approach. Challenging but fun, hand flown approach with a great view of DC from the port window seat.

 

I have ridden in but never piloted a helo, nor have I flown in one anywhere in the DCA helo corridor. Like other pilots and boaters on the Potomac, I have often seen helocopters there.

It is readily evident that the Army Blackhawk was flying visually, headed south on Helo Route 1, then transitioning to Route 4 abeam DCA. On the chart, there is a max altitude restriction of 200' from the Key Bridge to the Wilson Bridge on these two routes, inclusive of the area of the crash.

 

UH-60A and subsequent Black Hawks have VHF radios, just like commercial jets so separate UHF communication should not have been an issue.

 

Below there is a link to the Helo chart for the DC area below, showing the VFR helo corridor paths and altitude restrictions.

 

The accident appears to be a classic CRM "swiss cheese" multiple failure event, as are most aircraft accidents.

 

Any one of the following interventions could have prevented this accident:

-More timely, accurate and positive confirmation of traffic by an overtasked ATC [air-traffic control] controller.

-Adequate staffing in ATC tower.

-Black Hawk copilot/evaluator/instructor taking command of the aircraft or issuing timely instructions to correct altitude deviation.

-Observation/safety observer pilot aboard who is not wearing NVGs.

-Not doing military training missions in busy airport approach corridor when a much safer less congested one is available to the south of DCA

-Use of collusion avoidance technology by the Black Hawk. Airliners have this and can visualize on screen potential threats, although this is low altitude inhibited.

-and most importantly, adherence to published altitudes.

-If the American commuter pilots had not accepted the side-step on the Mount Vernon Visual Approach from RW1 to RW 33 there would be no collision.

-If a single pilot was not wearing NVGs, the plane might have been visible.

-If the helo was on altitude, they may have been able to discern the aircraft lights unobscured in the night sky looking up rather than looking level into lights on the west shoreline.

 

From the limited info available I am able to draw a few conclusions.

1. The helo was flying higher than the max permitted 200'. Had they adhered to this altitude restriction the accident would not have happened.

2. The ATC controller apparently did not provide timely, accurate, complete advise to the helo of the commercial airline traffic on approach to DCA.

3. The ATC controller apparently was task-saturated, performing dual roles, perhaps at the end of a long shift when attentiveness wanes.

4. The American jet may have been belly up to the helo in the final part of his turn or in subsequent corrections to centerline due to #5.

5. Strong, gusty crosswinds winds of 25 knots may have necessitated to a steep turn of the American jet to prevent overshoot of centerline and also affected helo altitude control.

6. NVG use by both pilots may have rendered the American jet invisible due to oversaturation of background lighting emanating from the west side of the Potomac.

7. The helo exhibited an erratic flight path, executing two near 90 degree turns, turning west off course, crossing Haines Point and heading directly to the north end of DCA airport before turning back south along the river. Given the airspace, this is indicative of inexperience, unfamiliarity and possibly even incompetence.

8. The inability of the pilot to maintain altitude, especially on a clear night is highly indicative of aircraft unfamiliarity, lack of recent flying, and gross incompetence, likely exacerbated by the unpracticed use of NVGs.

9. Military pilots love to do low level flying, especially in cool places like up the Potomac River by DCA and the Capital at night and take risks.

10. The Warrant Officer instructor pilot may have had a possible hesitancy to correct a (new?) female Captain of unknown qualifications and experience and higher rank.

11. There appears to be zero accountability of the American commuter pilots in the accident. They were exactly where they should have been on the MV 01 approach and sidestep to the RW 33 visual approach.

 

The DCA Potomac corridor is not one to be used in training new and inexperienced pilots, who are not current and highly experienced with NVGs.

 

It is my sincere hope that the female pilot flying the helo earned her place in this unit, based on merit, and there are no DEI factors involved. 

 

This unit is a highly competitive, desired assignment that has traditionally been awarded to the best of the best for a non-combat tour.

 

I know this because my Army helo pilot brother-in-law was going to be assigned to this unit as a bonus tour following the completion of his helo instructor tour in Iran in 1979. This deployment ended poorly, given the revolution. He was killed in a military C-12 plane crash when escaping Iran. I believe his transport was shot down. If so, it was covered up by the Carter Administration to avoid fanning the flames of war, but that is another issue.

 

Disclaimer: I have used night vision scopes and a monocular, but have never worn military or civilian NVGs either when flying or on the ground 

[red750]

Chilling eight words heard on radio seconds after American Airlines plane crash

 

Report here

[facthunter]

There's a much better commentary by a Bearded Ex Blackhawk helo pilot covering the roles and vision issues. It's about 10 Back.  Nev

Edited Saturday at 02:11 AM by facthunter

[Garfly]

5 hours ago, w3stie said:

This rather long commentary showed up in one of my feeds:

 

The author’s name is J.R. Rudy. He raises several issues I haven’t heard before, including the crosswinds that were swirling Wednesday night and the lack of a safety observer on the Black Hawk’s training mission. Beyond that - I’d rather let him speak for himself, unedited.

 

I am responding to your recent note about input from pilots regarding the DCA crash.

I could go on for hours about this but will condense it the best I can without too much unsupported speculation.

 

I am a retired aviation professional with nearly 40 years of flying experience. The first 8 years I served as a Fighter Pilot flying the F-14 in the US Navy from aircraft carriers. Collateral duties included service as a Landing Signals Officer (the tower for the carrier) a Standardization Officer. 

 

I was one of the primary investigators into the mid-air collision of a TopGun F-16 and one of my squadron's F-14s. No jets or lives were lost.

After leaving the Navy, I flew domestically and internationally for Delta Air Lines for over 30 years, the last 20 out of JFK.

 

I have flown into DCA [Reagan National] countless times as a pilot, though not recently. I did land there about a week ago at 1130p, as a passenger, landing to the south flying the River Visual 19 approach. Challenging but fun, hand flown approach with a great view of DC from the port window seat.

 

I have ridden in but never piloted a helo, nor have I flown in one anywhere in the DCA helo corridor. Like other pilots and boaters on the Potomac, I have often seen helocopters there.

It is readily evident that the Army Blackhawk was flying visually, headed south on Helo Route 1, then transitioning to Route 4 abeam DCA. On the chart, there is a max altitude restriction of 200' from the Key Bridge to the Wilson Bridge on these two routes, inclusive of the area of the crash.

 

UH-60A and subsequent Black Hawks have VHF radios, just like commercial jets so separate UHF communication should not have been an issue.

 

Below there is a link to the Helo chart for the DC area below, showing the VFR helo corridor paths and altitude restrictions.

 

The accident appears to be a classic CRM "swiss cheese" multiple failure event, as are most aircraft accidents.

 

Any one of the following interventions could have prevented this accident:

-More timely, accurate and positive confirmation of traffic by an overtasked ATC [air-traffic control] controller.

-Adequate staffing in ATC tower.

-Black Hawk copilot/evaluator/instructor taking command of the aircraft or issuing timely instructions to correct altitude deviation.

-Observation/safety observer pilot aboard who is not wearing NVGs.

-Not doing military training missions in busy airport approach corridor when a much safer less congested one is available to the south of DCA

-Use of collusion avoidance technology by the Black Hawk. Airliners have this and can visualize on screen potential threats, although this is low altitude inhibited.

-and most importantly, adherence to published altitudes.

-If the American commuter pilots had not accepted the side-step on the Mount Vernon Visual Approach from RW1 to RW 33 there would be no collision.

-If a single pilot was not wearing NVGs, the plane might have been visible.

-If the helo was on altitude, they may have been able to discern the aircraft lights unobscured in the night sky looking up rather than looking level into lights on the west shoreline.

 

From the limited info available I am able to draw a few conclusions.

1. The helo was flying higher than the max permitted 200'. Had they adhered to this altitude restriction the accident would not have happened.

2. The ATC controller apparently did not provide timely, accurate, complete advise to the helo of the commercial airline traffic on approach to DCA.

3. The ATC controller apparently was task-saturated, performing dual roles, perhaps at the end of a long shift when attentiveness wanes.

4. The American jet may have been belly up to the helo in the final part of his turn or in subsequent corrections to centerline due to #5.

5. Strong, gusty crosswinds winds of 25 knots may have necessitated to a steep turn of the American jet to prevent overshoot of centerline and also affected helo altitude control.

6. NVG use by both pilots may have rendered the American jet invisible due to oversaturation of background lighting emanating from the west side of the Potomac.

7. The helo exhibited an erratic flight path, executing two near 90 degree turns, turning west off course, crossing Haines Point and heading directly to the north end of DCA airport before turning back south along the river. Given the airspace, this is indicative of inexperience, unfamiliarity and possibly even incompetence.

8. The inability of the pilot to maintain altitude, especially on a clear night is highly indicative of aircraft unfamiliarity, lack of recent flying, and gross incompetence, likely exacerbated by the unpracticed use of NVGs.

9. Military pilots love to do low level flying, especially in cool places like up the Potomac River by DCA and the Capital at night and take risks.

10. The Warrant Officer instructor pilot may have had a possible hesitancy to correct a (new?) female Captain of unknown qualifications and experience and higher rank.

11. There appears to be zero accountability of the American commuter pilots in the accident. They were exactly where they should have been on the MV 01 approach and sidestep to the RW 33 visual approach.

 

The DCA Potomac corridor is not one to be used in training new and inexperienced pilots, who are not current and highly experienced with NVGs.

 

It is my sincere hope that the female pilot flying the helo earned her place in this unit, based on merit, and there are no DEI factors involved. 

 

This unit is a highly competitive, desired assignment that has traditionally been awarded to the best of the best for a non-combat tour.

 

I know this because my Army helo pilot brother-in-law was going to be assigned to this unit as a bonus tour following the completion of his helo instructor tour in Iran in 1979. This deployment ended poorly, given the revolution. He was killed in a military C-12 plane crash when escaping Iran. I believe his transport was shot down. If so, it was covered up by the Carter Administration to avoid fanning the flames of war, but that is another issue.

 

Disclaimer: I have used night vision scopes and a monocular, but have never worn military or civilian NVGs either when flying or on the ground 

 

All the hallmarks of a professional misinfo job - the kind that tends to "show up" in feeds and forums all over.

Typically, a collection of true facts and reasoned opinions (from open sources) lends credibility to the actual punch-line, in this case involving "sincere hope". 

And then the clincher ... the "I know this because" part (which, weirdly, often involves a brother-in-law in the know).  

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 07:04 AM by Garfly

[Red]

I wouldn't call that professional and I wouldn't be surprised if it was penned by AI. 

 

 

[danny_galaga]

21 minutes ago, Red said:

I wouldn't call that professional and I wouldn't be surprised if it was penned by AI. 

 

 

Sad times we are living in 😞

[w3stie]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

 

All the hallmarks of a professional misinfo job - the kind that tends to "show up" in feeds and forums all over.

Typically, a collection of true facts and reasoned opinions (from open sources) lends credibility to the actual punch-line, in this case involving "sincere hope". 

And then the clincher ... the "I know this because" part (which, weirdly, often involves a brother-in-law in the know).  

 

 

 

 

What are you basing that opinion on. Gut feeling or facts?

1 hour ago, Red said:

I wouldn't call that professional and I wouldn't be surprised if it was penned by AI. 

 

 

It’s not AI

[Thruster88]

JR rudys point 2 about ATC not providing the helicopter with traffic information is just plain wrong. Listen to the tape. Paraphrasing "Traffic is a rj700 at the bridge for runway 33" at the time of this transmission the helicopter was about same distance from the pinch point as the jet, both aircraft similar speed, what to do what to do, slow down maybe so the jet passes ahead?

[BrendAn]

this  is what trump did according to this reply in a discussion about trumps outburst.

 

On your 2ND DAY, you  1. Fired the head of the Transportation Security Administration, 2. Fired the entire Aviation Security Advisory Committee, 3. Froze hiring of all Air Traffic Controllers, 4. Fired 100 top FAA security officers.”

[Garfly]

 

 

 

3 hours ago, w3stie said:

What are you basing that opinion on. Gut feeling or facts?

 

A fair question,  although those aren't the only two reasons folks have for saying stuff. 

 

Anyway, I'd say my opinion is based on long familiarity with the format of the piece; a well worn (but still effective) template in the misinformation industry.

 

(Not all those brothers-in-law are likely legit. And the oddly inserted theory about this bro's demise 45 years ago, sort of lets the cat out of the bag: "He was killed in a military C-12 plane crash when escaping Iran. I believe his transport was shot down. If so, it was covered up by the Carter Administration to avoid fanning the flames of war, but that is another issue."  Another issue!!  If so!! )

 

But meanwhile, back at now; in fact, the identity of the third crew member is, at this time, still being withheld by the family and the US Army.

 

And for good reason:

 

'Illinois Democrat Sen. Tammy Duckworth, herself a decorated former Black Hawk pilot, told NPR she understood why the family declined to make their loved-one's name public. " We should be respecting the family's wishes at a time when they have suffered an unbelievable loss," Duckworth said. "I think it is a perfectly legitimate request the family would make. And I'm glad that the Army is honoring that request." Duckworth condemned the online speculation about the third member of the crew and especially President Trump's musings that the Army crew was to blame or was affected by diversity, equity and inclusion (DEI) hiring. "Every one of those troops that was in that aircraft earned their place there, and they are the most highly trained military aviators in the world," Duckworth said. "And I am just sick to my stomach that we would have a president who would say such things about the heroic men and women who serve every single day." '

                  Source:

 

 

Army withholds name of Black Hawk helicopter crew in D.C. crash, 2 others identified

WWW.NPR.ORG

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At the request of the family, the Army is not going to release the name of the female member of the Black Hawk crew killed in Wednesday's crash. The withholding of the name is a highly unusual move.

  

 

By the way, this site Unreported Truths seems to be one of the sources of the chain email above

 

 

A military and civilian aviation veteran explains Wednesday night's crash

ALEXBERENSON.SUBSTACK.COM

---

Several pilots wrote in - I thank you all. I found this explanation both admirably complete and largely apolitical, and I think you will too.

 

 

If you scroll to the bottom of the page you'll see what else exercises them right now:

 

 

Vaccinated English adults under 60 are dying at twice the rate of unvaccinated people the same age

And have been for six months. This chart may seem unbelievable or impossible, but it's correct, based on weekly data from the British government.

Nov 21, 2021 • 

Alex Berenson

2,100

697

 

URGENT: Covid vaccines will keep you from acquiring full immunity EVEN IF YOU ARE INFECTED AND RECOVER

Don’t take it from me, I don’t even get to tweet anymore.

Oct 22, 2021 • 

Alex Berenson

 

 

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 12:32 PM by Garfly

[Garfly]

 

Some good insights here:

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKJklQRyKxo

[Red]

5 hours ago, w3stie said:

What are you basing that opinion on. Gut feeling or facts?

It’s not AI

Lol, using an online Computer algorithm that itself is largely AI  to check whether something was AI generated or not and believing it without question

 

...oh the Irony.
Remember all this stuff is only as good as the data that gets chucked into it,though to be fair it does have some human qualities, sometimes it even Lies😁

 

 

 

[facthunter]

Of Course you CAN still Have a good GO at detecting it. EVEN using AI to do it. Set a thief to catch a thief. Nev

[BurnieM]

Getting back to the facts;

 

Juans second video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0

 

Main facts;

Helo route 1 has a height limit of 200 feet

Helo PAT25 was between 300 and 350 feet at time of collison as JIA5342 was descending on final

Helo was deviating slighty right of route 1

At least some of the 3 man crew were wearing night vision

 

Edited Sunday at 12:36 AM by BurnieM

[facthunter]

The  HELO's were Training for a "special, end of the World" situation to evacuate high level Politicians. THAT's a FACT  and it has been happening for some time. There was also a political manoeuvre about retirements  in train to add STRESS  to the existing chronic understaffing  situation .    Ironically, Ronald Reagan WAS the person who Sacked ALL the PATCO..(Professional Air Traffic Controllers) en Mass in the 1980s  putting thousands of lives at risk at the time. Nev

[IBob]

2 hours ago, BurnieM said:

Getting back to the facts;

 

Juans second video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3gD_lnBNu0

 

Main facts;

Helo route 1 has a height limit of 200 feet

Helo PAT25 was between 300 and 350 feet at time of collison as JIA5342 was descending on final

Helo was deviating slighty right of route 1

At least some of the 3 man crew were wearing night vision

 

How was the Helo altitude derived? And does/did that value require correction for QNH?