American Airlines collision with Blackhawk helicopter. Crashes into Potomac River

[facthunter]

"HUMAN FACTORS "are part of the FACTS.  Nev

[Deano747]

4 hours ago, BurnieM said:

Main facts;

Helo route 1 has a height limit of 200 feet

Helo PAT25 was between 300 and 350 feet at time of collison as JIA5342 was descending on final

Helo was deviating slighty right of route 1

At least some of the 3 man crew were wearing night vision

Fact

1 - is correct

2 - tower radar readout has them at 200' - to be verified by the Blackhawk's flight recorder 

3 - had turned through up to 90 degrees left and right of track along the route

4 - aircrew had NVG's attached to their helmets - whether they were being used for 'augmented' vision or flipped up will be a matter for the accident review.

 

My opinion (based on quite a bit of experience with NVG's in helicopters) is they would have been flipped up for that part of the sortie as the sheer volume of background lighting would have caused too much flaring.

[IBob]

Deano, the Blancolirio summary I watched had the Helo at 200'..........then 300' just before the collision.
I don't know how those numbers were derived. I guess we'll find out in due course. Or not.......(

 

One of the reports right after the event contained the assertion that the airliner 'suffered a sudden loss of altitude passing over the river', or words to that effect.
Where that came from, and whether it was just uninformed conjecture, I don't know. Either...

[onetrack]

iBob, the height drop of the CRJ700 is uninformed conjecture. The NTSB says the airliner was at 325 feet (+ or - 25 feet) and was doing nothing wrong.

 

Crash data suggests helicopter flew too high, plane tried to climb in last second

WWW.SMH.COM.AU

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One second before impact, pilots of the American Airlines plane had a “verbal reaction” and the plane increased its pitch – indicating they pulled back on the controls, trying to climb.

 

 

[IBob]

Yes, I just saw their NTSB press briefing.
While no doubt they have a long way to go, they sound fairly confident of the 325' figure at this point, derived from corrected ADS-B and another source that I didn't catch.
For the helo, so far they have only the ATC radar readout, which they say shows 200', albeit a less granular (precise) source.
This is understandably causing some press confusion, despite them going over it several times.

I also watched commentary from another pilot who pointed out that in the necessary low level banked left turn for a landing on the shorter 33 strip, the airline pilots would have been tightly focused  to the left then ahead............with the helo meanwhile coming from the right.

[kgwilson]

I'd say the Blackhawk altitude on the transcript probably came from ADSB received data as it was available almost immediately after the collision. This will need to be corroborated with data from the FDR. Information from both FDRs will provide a much clearer picture of the whole event.

[Thruster88]

I guess the real question is if everything went to plan and the two aircraft missed by 100 feet would this be acceptable. No is the answer. 

[IBob]

KJ, if you watch the briefing, they are very specific about what they have so far in terms of altitudes. In fact they go through it about 3 times: for the Blackhawk at time of briefing, they only have ATC radar derived altitude.
These choppers are part of a continuity of government arrangement, for moving government personnel out if the seat of government is threatened in some way. In those circumstances, they definitely wouldn't want to be transmitting their location by ADS-B or any other means. So maybe they run dark on these exercises???

[BurnieM]

325 and 200 feet would lead to an underpants moment but not a collision so one or both of these numbers is incorrect.

 

Appears that both aircraft had lights and ADS-B operating.

 

There is a history of ATC problems and complaints about helo flight height.

Discussion on whether low level helo ops close to a high traffic field should be occurring at all has been ongoing for years.

 

Political pressure to 'protect politicians' should also not be discounted.

 

Edited Sunday at 09:04 PM by BurnieM

[facthunter]

"Limit manoeuvres" by top line military HELO's practiced at LOW level and in the same airspace as congested RPT and at night. WHO could ever see THAT as a good idea? That's why Flight Simulators were designed  over 70 years ago to prevent unnecessary LOSS of lives.  Nev

Edited Sunday at 11:29 PM by facthunter
spelling

[Marty_d]

I agree. Can't see the necessity for military aircraft to practice in high RPT traffic areas. 

If it's vital to practice near/in a city (why?) then divert civilian flights away from the area.

[facthunter]

Mock up a place somewhere else in a remote area. Doing it in the ACTUAL place it relates to makes it pretty obvious to anyone wanting to Know, just what is going on.  HOW DUMB can you be in the USA? Nev

[facthunter]

 Wel, the Twin Towers  Hijacker pilots were Trained in the USA and didn't NEED to be able to land the Plane. WTF?  Nev

[red750]

https://au.yahoo.com/news/trump-admin-emails-air-traffic-193838183.html

[Garfly]

Juan's update:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9mAUks0krI

 

[kgwilson]

No new surprises or information in update 3 except that it is time that this military route should be stopped. The separation is far too small and a small error can and has lead to disaster.

[Deano747]

Lot of assumptions made by Juan (and other 'Experts') with little to no actual evidence to support.

 

Edited yesterday at 03:39 AM by Deano747

[IBob]

Specifically???

[Deano747]

My unanswered questions would be

 

1          Who was actually flying both the RJ and the Blackhawk?

Comments about the F/O on the RJ who should have been looking out for traffic assumes the Captain was the PF.

Male voice on the Blackhawk radio doesn't mean it wasn't the voice of the pilot flying.

It was usual for the flying pilot in the helicopter in both the RAAF and RAF world to do the ground and tower radio with the non flying pilot doing the enroute and tactical radios.

2         Military training flight just means it's non operational flight - doesn't mean it was a check ride.

They don't fly for fun - only really 4 types of Military flying - positioning / training (recency) / instructional (which is your initial training and also check flights) / and operational.

My opinion only but "Training flight" smacks of recency.

Who's recency - Instructors need to retain recency as well as the lower life pilots (NVG recency with the RAF while I was there was something like 10 hours pm). 

I believe that it would be unlikely the crew were using augmented vision for that part of the sortie - and no one has detailed where they were going after - lots of dark airspace south of Fort Washington to get your NVG work in.

Which pilot was Captain - just because one pilot had more hours and was an instructor doesn't automatically make them the Captain for a flight. Senior squadron pilots and also Instructors often had the 'bog rat' as the Captain on recency and positioning flights for their experience and development.

 

As mentioned - there are a whole heap of 'experts' that have weighed in on this - very few that have both military helicopter and commercial experience operation in that bit of airspace. 

Most are just cobbling together bits of gossip from various sources and trying to make it sound factual. 

 

Let's wait for the real 'experts' ...........

 

 

 

[Deano747]

2 hours ago, kgwilson said:

No new surprises or information in update 3 except that it is time that this military route should be stopped. The separation is far too small and a small error can and has lead to disaster.

So do you close the airport (or the runway 33) that the pollies there love as it's close to work, or the military route that the pollies there love?

I do agree that the separation standards that have become the norm there have been proved to be too loose, and a third option will undoubtedly be implemented.

[onetrack]

Imagine the massive hue and cry if the heli had been full of Govt VIP's or politicians, and a dozen of them died, too? There'd be immediate upgrades of flight planning and ATC operations, on a huge scale.

[Blueadventures]

31 minutes ago, onetrack said:

Imagine the massive hue and cry if the heli had been full of Govt VIP's or politicians, and a dozen of them died, too? There'd be immediate upgrades of flight planning and ATC operations, on a huge scale.

No different to crossing a busy street; aircraft landing and taking off being the traffic and the helo being the pedestrian wanting to cross; in a sort of way.  Same caution before crossing, also looking before entering runway to taxi back track.

[IBob]

So, Deano, your principal concerns with the commentary are:
1. Assumptions as to who was flying what, and who was Captain at the time.
2. Assumptions about what sort of military flight it was, and for whose benefit.

3. Your personal belief that it is unlikely they were using NVG.
????

[Deano747]

I don't have concerns besides the 'experts' looking for their 15 seconds of fame.

 

The crash occurred because the Blackhawk crew failed to follow the 'don't crash into the airplane' instruction.

 

The 'how and why that happened' should be left to real experts and not those seeking likes .......

Edited yesterday at 10:29 AM by Deano747

[IBob]

When something like this happens, there is always some discussion and conjecture. I would suggest that is human enough, and in most cases not because anyone is seeking 'likes'.
And no-one is obliged to take part in any of that if they prefer not to.
As fort the 'real experts', I don't know how it goes in the US, but certainly in this part of the world, history has shown they are not as all-seeing as one would wish. And the idea of us all sitting silent until they have spoken is a bit odd.

In my view.