I Am A Member? But Really I Am A Shareholder?

[facthunter]

Yeah YOU keep SAYING that, but it doesn't provide the answer to the real issue . Exposure to an almost UNLIMITED LIABILITY more so than most other sports you would compare it to. Nev. 

[turboplanner]

8 hours ago, facthunter said:

Yeah YOU keep SAYING that, but it doesn't provide the answer to the real issue . Exposure to an almost UNLIMITED LIABILITY more so than most other sports you would compare it to. Nev. 

The discussion in some places here mixes up routine internal financial issues with external Public Liability claims. You've been talking about looking at the Constitution etc.

 

What has happened so far has just been a Coronial Inquest where RAA Ltd has been represented by lawyers, and that's expensive where multiple days are involved.

 

The Coroner has referred some of the evidence to the DPP for possible prosecution, and that could be very expensive to be involved in too.

 

Someone on this site is inferring there may be two more investigations; who knows what that means. It could be RAA doing an Audit, it could be CASA doing an audit into one of its SAAOs, just the same as the audit back in 2013 which permanently ended flying for a lot of people with non-compliant aircraft. Who knows.

 

Matters have been referred to the DPP by the Coroner. If they decide to investigate, that could be called an investigation.

 

After that is all over, there could be a civil suit relating to public liability if anyone is found to have had a duty of care and breached it, where your "real issue" comes into play. A judge decides that case, not CASA, not RAA.

 

We can't predict where that would go whether any payment would be awarded or how much or to whom.

You may not like the idea of paying out a partner's income for life because you made a mistake, but, say $100,000 per year x 35 years = $3.5 million. $40,000 x 35 years = $1.4 million (neither related to this case) is where the big dollar settlements come from.

 

That's just the way it has been from the mid 1980's.

 

[Love to fly]

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

" It could be RAA doing an Audit, it could be CASA doing an audit into one of its SAAOs, just the same as the audit back in 2013 which permanently ended flying for a lot of people with non-compliant aircraft."

Genuine question. What happened in 2013?

3 hours ago, turboplanner said:

 

 

Edited Monday at 09:20 PM by Love to fly

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, Love to fly said:

Genuine question. What happened in 2013?

 

An unregistered pilot in an unregistered RA aircraft found it necessary to do a beat up over some people and crashed without injury.

There was a lot of talk about it, and RAA Inc took the position that it wasn't a registered pilot, wasn't a registered RA aircraft, had on number so it wasn't RAA's problem.

 

CASA told RAA to do an audit of all RAA aircraft. 

 

A lot had to clean up their act; I suspect a lot with non complying aircraft never flew again.

 

[facthunter]

Why is it RAAus problem when he's not a pilot and the plane isn't registered.?  Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Why is it RAAus problem when he's not a pilot and the plane isn't registered.?  Nev

If you're driving an unregistered car with no licence, the police will fine you and the car is off the road until its registered. The police don't say "nothing to do with us"

 

[facthunter]

BAD example really. The Police have jurisdiction over all criminal acts. Not RAAus.  Police have control over all RAAus incidents/accidents unless ATSB intervene.. RAAus are invited to assist. Have no right to demand  access to anything.  Nev

[BrendAn]

45 minutes ago, facthunter said:

BAD example really. The Police have jurisdiction over all criminal acts. Not RAAus.  Police have control over all RAAus incidents/accidents unless ATSB intervene.. RAAus are invited to assist. Have no right to demand  access to anything.  Nev

unregistered flying can't be illegal. otherwise birds would be in trouble😁

[turboplanner]

49 minutes ago, facthunter said:

BAD example really. The Police have jurisdiction over all criminal acts. Not RAAus.  Police have control over all RAAus incidents/accidents unless ATSB intervene.. RAAus are invited to assist. Have no right to demand  access to anything.  Nev

Well, you'll just have to have a good cry then, because we're not all going to turn around and come back.

Why not watch what happens step by step in the current case.

[jackc]

Nothing is illegal unless you get caught doing it.  Only when you get caught and the illegality is discovered?  THEN you face the music.
As it was said to me on phone last night, you can fly an unregistered plane any time you like, the plane itself does not care if it’s not registered, it will still fly just the same, regardless 🤩

[facthunter]

Grow UP Turbs. Discussion with you is a lost Cause. Nev

[facthunter]

Bully for U 2, Brendon. Turbs NEVER answers a straight question and you reckon that's  alright? .  Cheap shot anyhow. You CAN train at any height that is LEGAL to fly at. OK? Nev

[BrendAn]

😁.

[facthunter]

I don't know what those little things MEAN. Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, jackc said:

Nothing is illegal unless you get caught doing it.  Only when you get caught and the illegality is discovered?  THEN you face the music.
As it was said to me on phone last night, you can fly an unregistered plane any time you like, the plane itself does not care if it’s not registered, it will still fly just the same, regardless 🤩

Today I gave an answer on what has happened to RA owners back in 2013 when someone did that. A lot of people got hurt.

[T510]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

Today I gave an answer on what has happened to RA owners back in 2013 when someone did that. A lot of people got hurt.

I thought you said there was no injuries?

 

Unless you are talking about non compliant aircraft being grounded and other RA aircraft having to go through an audit?

 

[Red]

 

5 hours ago, turboplanner said:

If you're driving an unregistered car with no licence, the police will fine you and the car is off the road until its registered. The police don't say "nothing to do with 

Regulators are not police

[turboplanner]

58 minutes ago, T510 said:

I thought you said there was no injuries?

 

Unless you are talking about non compliant aircraft being grounded and other RA aircraft having to go through an audit?

 

Not medical injuries; hurt by finding their aircraft could not be made compliant with current regulations, hurt by not being able to afford costs required etc.

[turboplanner]

45 minutes ago, Red said:

 

Regulators are not police

No Regulators involved. In Australia RA is self-administering.

[Thruster88]

4 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

No Regulators involved. In Australia RA is self-administering.

Please explain how aircraft in Australia with numbers on the side are not regulated. 

[turboplanner]

29 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

Please explain how aircraft in Australia with numbers on the side are not regulated. 

Regulate is to prescribe or control.

In the prescription age pre the mid 1980s we used to have prescriptive control and there were Controlling Bodies, one example being CAMS.

 

After the State and Federal Governments decided to offload liability on to the recreational and sporting activities, we had to completely rethink our way of managing Associations to avoid negligent actions by participants sucking us into losing our homes etc. so mostly we set benchmarks based in industry best practice, Australian Standards, International Standards etc. and the participants worked to those benchmarks.  T

Initially the water park people were pretty much out of business with collisions down waterslides producing Quadriplegics who needed house remodelling and 24 hour shift nursing for the rest of their lives - around $10 million at the time. The industry moved to a two person management. The one at the top raised a red flag when he released the kid, matched by the one at the bottom who'd cleared out the kids in the end pool. when the kid arrived and got out of the pool the bottom guy dropped the flag and the top guy let the next kid go. Injuries ceased, but the wages were costly. Today there are two electronic gates. The top one only opens when the bottom pool has been cleared.

So we've been coming up with new systems for around 40 years now.

[spacesailor]

How can an Aircraft be , ' illegal ' yet can still be frown .!

Grandfather clause . To make people Lie just to keep their pride&joy .gracing our sky's .

spacesailor

[jackc]

1 minute ago, spacesailor said:

How can an Aircraft be , ' illegal ' yet can still be frown .!

Grandfather clause . To make people Lie just to keep their pride&joy .gracing our sky's .

spacesailor

illegal?  Is a sick bird 🤩

[Red]

7 hours ago, spacesailor said:

How can an Aircraft be , ' illegal ' yet can still be frown .!

Grandfather clause . To make people Lie just to keep their pride&joy .gracing our sky's .

spacesailor

There are always people who believe Legal = Safe and Illegal = Dangerous .....in absolute terms.

Despite what those who fly desks will tell you, pieces of paper dont make anything work

 

[T510]

15 hours ago, turboplanner said:

No Regulators involved. In Australia RA is self-administering.

If a plane is unregistered how does RAAus administer it?

 

The RAAus Flight Ops manual says their only form of enforcement is to suspend or apply a variation to a licence and they need to inform CASA.

 

Can't take a licence off someone who doesn't have one and is flying an unregistered plane