Fatal Victoria, training and RAAus.

[Litespeed]

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-14/coronial-inquest-mathew-farrell-pilot-death-mount-beauty/104931548

 

I notice it was dumped in the news as a Friday closing time special, aka taking out the trash. 

 

So RAAus has admitted it's completely unable/ unwilling/ conflicted/ unqualified to conduct investigations of crashes? 

 

ATSB and Casa to investigate and regulate training?

 

About time, irrespective of the nature of a regulatory body, it should never get to investigate its own crashes/ stuff ups etc. Independence in oversight is fundamental to safety and culture of aviation.

 

I don't want to see the costs just burdened on the sector but rather seen as the efficacy of government funds to maintain a vibrant aviation sector that trains and can innovate.

We should not be looking at a user pays system but rather a regulatory approach that sees light aviation as essential transport infrastructure even at a private scale. Not a hindrance to government but a actively favoured area of the economy.

 

Alas,  I think a absolute shit fight is  going on and by the time it's done, the 'night of long knives' would seem apt. 

 

Or will it all vanish in a puff of confected smoke never to be uttered again?

 

Either way we may never find the body of truth other than the Coroner's statements. As we know Coroner's are  ignored when convenient. 

 

We can be sure it won't be followed up by the MSM and will be seen as a niche issue, except for the targetted walloping for the labour government as a whipping boy.  I hope the ABC continues to followup particularly after the recent efforts.

[BurnieM]

RAAus have been wanting the ATSB to step up (some would say do its job) for some time.

 

This the only good thing to come out of this;

"Mr Lawrie recommended that the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) should investigate all fatal accidents with RAAus-registered aircraft, rather than RAAus."

 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-14/coronial-inquest-mathew-farrell-pilot-death-mount-beauty/104931548

 

Edited February 14 by BurnieM

[kgwilson]

The history of this fatal crash shows RA-Aus in a vary poor light. Jill Bailey realised she had stuffed up and was stood down for a week but then the cover ups began. I had 200 hours hang gliding experience & a lot of weather knowledge when I started my PPL. None of this was considered at all though I taught my instructors a few things, my prior learning helped me a lot & I found the exams easy.

 

That said the attitude of the pilot is always a factor and as I understand it he was advised not to fly in such poor conditions but ignored the advice.

[BrendAn]

That said the attitude of the pilot is always a factor and as I understand it he was advised not to fly in such poor conditions but ignored the advice

 

this is what no one seems to be bothered about .  whats happened to personal resposibility.  this person would more than likely have done the same thing regardless of the 

experience he had behind him. 

another thing is the aircraft.  you can do more involved training to obtain an rpl and might never fly anything other than  a c152 or 172.

in raaus you can fly lightweight slippery fast aircraft the will get you into trouble quicker than a lumbering old cessna so maybe our training needs to reflect the performance of these 

modern airframes.  they are not draggy ultralight aircraft any more.

[skippydiesel]

21 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

 

Disclaimer - My following comments are NOT about the incident being discussed in this Thread.

 

"That said the attitude of the pilot is always a factor and as I understand it he was advised not to fly in such poor conditions but ignored the advice"

We live in a time in which personal responsibility seems to have been sidelined in favour of blaming/suing thirds parties.

 

I feel that there are two reasons for this:

The various causation concepts (eg Swiss Cheese) which have rightly moved the focus on the individual (pilot)as the sole perpetrator/cause of the incident, to one that looks at the system that may have failed.

The legal industry (ambulance chasers) who seek to make significant income out of bringing the matter to a court of law - popularised by TV programs & muckraker journalists.

 

While I am in favour of concepts like the Swiss Cheese view of incidents, the PIC is and always will be, the one who is responsible for the decision to fly or not. Swiss Cheese should have the effect of proportional responsibility, not absolution (unless deserved).

 

"in raaus you can fly lightweight slippery fast aircraft the will get you into trouble quicker than a lumbering old cessna so maybe our training needs to reflect the performance of these 

modern airframes.  they are not draggy ultralight aircraft any more."

This is a fallacy - RAA's covers a very wide range of aircraft types & performance. RAA'S instructors/schools can only deliver generic instruction. When changing to a diffrent type of aircraft it is the pilots responsibility to seek further instruction ON TYPE😈

[BrendAn]

5 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

Disclaimer - My following comments are NOT about the incident being discussed in this Thread.

 

"That said the attitude of the pilot is always a factor and as I understand it he was advised not to fly in such poor conditions but ignored the advice"

We live in a time in which personal responsibility seems to have been sidelined in favour of blaming/suing thirds parties.

 

I feel that there are two reasons for this:

The various causation concepts (eg Swiss Cheese) which have rightly moved the focus on the individual (pilot)as the sole perpetrator/cause of the incident, to one that looks at the system that may have failed.

The legal industry (ambulance chasers) who seek to make significant income out of bringing the matter to a court of law - popularised by TV programs & muckraker journalists.

 

While I am in favour of concepts like the Swiss Cheese view of incidents, the PIC is and always will be, the one who is responsible for the decision to fly or not. Swiss Cheese should have the effect of proportional responsibility, not absolution (unless deserved).

 

"in raaus you can fly lightweight slippery fast aircraft the will get you into trouble quicker than a lumbering old cessna so maybe our training needs to reflect the performance of these 

modern airframes.  they are not draggy ultralight aircraft any more."

This is a fallacy - RAA's covers a very wide range of aircraft types & performance. RAA'S instructors/schools can only deliver generic instruction. When changing to a diffrent type of aircraft it is the pilots responsibility to seek further instruction ON TYPE😈

Whatever.  You missed the point as usual.

[skippydiesel]

16 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

Whatever.  You missed the point as usual.

Ditto - I was supporting your initial statement however went on to expand on the third party blame game😈

[facthunter]

The state Police in the location of the crash have the authority  to investigate and always have. AUF or RAAus have never had such authority. ATSB can elect to but have limited funding so only get involved in the ones they  give priority to. ATSB and the Police are INDEPENDANT. The CASA and RAAus aren't as they are major Participants in the "Game".  THAT Report misrepresents the situation.  Nev

[facthunter]

 As to experience counting, I took a mate of mine up in a Tiger Moth at Broadmeadows (District Park) Newcastle and he was a very accomplished Model plane Builder and flyer and I reckon I could have soloed him in about ONE hour..Nev

[BurnieM]

We could argue all day about whether his experience was relevant for a RPC.

 

The real question is why he was granted a cross country endorsement ?

A lot of x-country training is about information gathering; airfield info, route terrain/airspace and weather. And then exercising good judgement.

Then putting this into action with several flights to confirm the theory is put into practise.

 

I would not like to be RAAus or the instructors estate.

 

Edited February 15 by BurnieM

[jackc]

2 minutes ago, facthunter said:

 As to experience counting, I took a mate of mine up in a Tiger Moth at Broadmeadows (District Park) Newcastle and he was a very accomplished Model plane Builder and flyer and I reckon I could have soloed him in about ONE hour..Nev

You either have it, or you don’t, but there are varying degrees of either.  IF it takes you a lot of hours of training to make Solo and end up with your certificate?  Does it make you a good Pilot?  No, it’s hoped that practice and further learning does that.

In this threads case, the Pilot made a poor decision, the holes lined up, and he has paid the price, as many have done before him, some with many thousands of hours. 
We can go on for days about investigation responsibilities, but it all comes back to money……..

something needs to change in that respect?  BUT how or what?

[facthunter]

There will always be risk takers. That shows most when they are let loose. The bloke who should get another hobby is pretty obvious to an experienced Instructor though under confidence could be the problem.  I don't think there should be a competition for the lowest hours to solo  Baron Manfred Von Richtofen wrote Off at least 2 planes during training..  Nev

Edited February 15 by facthunter
expand

[facthunter]

Weather conditions played a big part in this accident. Most cross country's are not done in Marginal conditions. Where does a student get the experience from? Any pilot who flys enough will encounter weather issues. Nev

[FlyBoy1960]

There are links to the ABC story but is there a link to the coroners report itself ?

 

Thats what i would like to read ?

[BurnieM]

Does not seem to be up on their website yet;

    https://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/inquests-findings/findings

 

[FlyBoy1960]

So all this discussion is on an ABC news article ?

[BurnieM]

All the news sites have it

[FlyBoy1960]

Doesnt mean they interpret the info correctly.

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, facthunter said:

Weather conditions played a big part in this accident. Most cross country's are not done in Marginal conditions. Where does a student get the experience from? Any pilot who flys enough will encounter weather issues. Nev

he took off when another bloke said it was too bad to fly and left his plane in the hangar. the airfield manager thought he heard a truck because the weather was so bad he didn't think any one would be flying.   

[facthunter]

Yes I heard that mentioned at the time. .  IF you are doing a charter you tend to GO till you can't. You will feel you have to give it a try for the sake of the customer. WHERE to draw the Line is  what experience helps you with.. Nev

[Methusala]

Really Nev, what in heck has charter flying got to do with the topic?

[CT9000]

During the later stages of my training, my instructor deliberately set me up for a dual nav. that he knew was not going to get there. The whole point of this was to see how far I would go before turning back or diverting, to teach the smart decision making process. This was very good training.

[440032]

Coroner's report is out.

[facthunter]

It's about decision making Methusala, and the fact He was not pressured as one might be in other circumstances. As I also mentioned, Human Factors. Nev

[BurnieM]

corvairkr

 

Here is the coroners report.

https://www.coronerscourt.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/COR 2022 005430 Form 37-Finding into Death Following Inquest_Signed.pdf

 

jason