New training aircraft

[Thruster88]

University New South Wales has acquired 6 new Diamond DA40xlt aircraft for their fleet. Interesting that they went with the  Lycoming IO-360 that some would call a dinosaur or lycosaurous rather than the FADEC jet A burning turbo diesel of the DA40Ng model.

 

 

Cutting-edge planes take UNSW to new heights

WWW.UNSW.EDU.AU

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UNSW School of Aviation has acquired six new state-of-the-art aeroplanes, enhancing the training experience for Australia's next generation of pilots.

 

[facthunter]

That would be my Powerplant of choice because it's PROVEN to be a Practical  thing. Nev

[jackc]

Just my useless opinion here. The technology in these aircraft is too overwhelming for many older students, to come to grips with.

Glass Cockpits should be an endorsement only, not a training platform.

Only fixed pitch props as well. Hiding in my bomb shelter!

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, jackc said:

Just my useless opinion here. The technology in these aircraft is too overwhelming for many older students, to come to grips with.

Glass Cockpits should be an endorsement only, not a training platform.

Only fixed pitch props as well. Hiding in my bomb shelter!

Interesting -

 

"..........overwhelming for many older students........"

I am far from my first flush of youth and although learning is lifelong, not a student. I am flying a glass cockpit for the first time. Can't say the transition was easy and I still have moments of uncertainty but getting there!

The biggest problem for me was knowing where to look and then interpret the diffrent format - time, eventually allows the geriatric brain to adapt. I am not sure that this is any diffrent from moving from one aircraft to another with a diffrent panel/switch /control/ layout.

 

"Glass Cockpits should be an endorsement only, not a training platform."

Hmm! If the student is more likly to be using a glass cockpits in his/her future, why not start them on what they will be using. Perhaps  "steam gauges" will require an endorsement, for pilots wishing to fly vintage aircraft.

 

"Only fixed pitch props as well."

I would suggest that "ab initio" students, heading for CPL, start on complex aircraft/systems from the get go. For the most part they will adapt very quickly, the cost and time taken to qualify, less. While I haven't done the following - its seems that glider training/experince, will deliver lessons in energy management and keeping ahead of the aircraft, that will be a lifelong benefit to the CP (they may get to land a multi passenger glider on a disused (Gimli) airstrip or the Hudson River)😈

 

 

[Red]

I don't think UNSW are aiming at the one foot in the grave market

[BrendAn]

7 hours ago, Thruster88 said:

University New South Wales has acquired 6 new Diamond DA40xlt aircraft for their fleet. Interesting that they went with the  Lycoming IO-360 that some would call a dinosaur or lycosaurous rather than the FADEC jet A burning turbo diesel of the DA40Ng model.

 

 

Cutting-edge planes take UNSW to new heights

WWW.UNSW.EDU.AU

---

UNSW School of Aviation has acquired six new state-of-the-art aeroplanes, enhancing the training experience for Australia's next generation of pilots.

 

do they also have a maintenance training facility.   lycos would make sense if there students doing those courses.   lots of them to work on when they go out into the world.

[Freizeitpilot]

The RAAF now uses the Pilatus PC21 for ab initio.  That is one helluva seriously fast and complex aircraft for ab initio. I understand there is a lot of sim work up front beforehand  though.

 

Similarly, maybe to a slightly lesser extent, this appears to be the direction structured training is going for prospective multi-crew airline pilots.

The days of the freight dogs in 40 yr old Chieftains doing overnight interstate flights or some ‘northern exposure’ in NT may be numbered (sadly)

[BrendAn]

51 minutes ago, Freizeitpilot said:

The RAAF now uses the Pilatus PC21 for ab initio.  That is one helluva seriously fast and complex aircraft for ab initio. I understand there is a lot of sim work up front beforehand  though.

 

Similarly, maybe to a slightly lesser extent, this appears to be the direction structured training is going for prospective multi-crew airline pilots.

The days of the freight dogs in 40 yr old Chieftains doing overnight interstate flights or some ‘northern exposure’ in NT may be numbered (sadly)

they are only an upgrade from the pc9s .  when i was a kid i used to love watching the macchis , mirages and f111s at the sale raaf base. turbo props just don't sound as good.

[onetrack]

I'd have to opine the Lycosaurus' were a lot cheaper than any high-tech FADEC, Mercedes-based diesel - and I understand the Lycosaurus produces more grunt? (180HP VS 168HP). 

Also, it seems the Austro AE 300 engine has a shorter lifespan, and no ability to overhaul, so you need to buy a brand new donk every time, at around US$60K?

And finally, the DA40 NG has a lesser climb rate, and a higher landing speed than the DA40 XLT. Looks like a no-brainer in choice, to me.

 

https://www.diamondaircraft.com/en/private-owners/aircraft/da40/tech-specs/

 

 

[Roundsounds]

18 hours ago, jackc said:

Just my useless opinion here. The technology in these aircraft is too overwhelming for many older students, to come to grips with.

Glass Cockpits should be an endorsement only, not a training platform.

Only fixed pitch props as well. Hiding in my bomb shelter!

I agree with the excess of technology, not necessarily about the effect of age. 
The basic stick and rudder skills are best taught with minimal instrumentation. This forces trainees to rely on visual attitudes rather than a PFD. When I had my flying school we operated one basic trainer without a VSI, DI or AH, it was ideal for the initial training. You need to establish those basic skills, then build on them.

i would not send a student solo until they could complete a circuit with the instrument panel covered. You can see attitudes, hear power settings and judge height way more reliably than expected if trained to do so. 

[facthunter]

U/Ls should be "head outside the cockpit" planes  Why have a mini airliner cockpit when that is not the environment you fly in. Basic pilotage to a good standard is what you want . Anything else can come later IF you want it. Nev

[skippydiesel]

4 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

I agree with the excess of technology, not necessarily about the effect of age. 
The basic stick and rudder skills are best taught with minimal instrumentation. This forces trainees to rely on visual attitudes rather than a PFD. When I had my flying school we operated one basic trainer without a VSI, DI or AH, it was ideal for the initial training. You need to establish those basic skills, then build on them.

i would not send a student solo until they could complete a circuit with the instrument panel covered. You can see attitudes, hear power settings and judge height way more reliably than expected if trained to do so. 

I agree that the instruments you have nominated are not critical for safe flight, especially within the training (familiar) area.

 

The ones you have not nominated are, especially for the student. Attitude, power & height are relativly easy for a human to judge. Not so airspeed (unless in an open cockpit), when in the circuit/on approach to land. It can be done of course but an ASI is a great help😈

[facthunter]

To be able to do a circuit without one is desirable. Naturally you err on the safe side by being a little fast if there's any doubt. At West Maitland the Mud wasps were pretty good at blocking the Pitots in record time.. Nev

[Roundsounds]

48 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I agree that the instruments you have nominated are not critical for safe flight, especially within the training (familiar) area.

 

The ones you have not nominated are, especially for the student. Attitude, power & height are relativly easy for a human to judge. Not so airspeed (unless in an open cockpit), when in the circuit/on approach to land. It can be done of course but an ASI is a great help😈

You’ve totalled missed the point!

if you set the appropriate configuration and the appropriate attitude and power setting, airspeed will be correct - no need for an ASI. You’d be surprised as to the number of aeroplanes I’ve flown over the years with inaccurate ASIs. The typical

problem being pin holes in the pitot or static lines. 

[skippydiesel]

48 minutes ago, Roundsounds said:

You’ve totalled missed the point!

if you set the appropriate configuration and the appropriate attitude and power setting, airspeed will be correct - no need for an ASI. You’d be surprised as to the number of aeroplanes I’ve flown over the years with inaccurate ASIs. The typical

problem being pin holes in the pitot or static lines. 

I missed nothing of your comment - I merely point out that humans have very poor/nil ability to judge air speed, when at altitude (probably above 100 ft from  the surface). The " ..appropriate configuration and the appropriate attitude and power setting.." is all very well, until you start down Base/Final (changing all three of the settings you have quoted) to an unfamiliar runway in gusting conditions, with no ASI.

 

Not suggesting it can't be done (as you have pointed out and I have done on at least two occasions) however it's a long way outside my comfort zone and I expect the same for most recreational level pilots.

 

You can't escape the species limitations which can, to some extent, be mitigated by remaining cool, applying much of what you suggest  - Give me an ASI to be sure (I have a backup unit in my aircraft).😈

Edited Thursday at 01:26 AM by skippydiesel

[Roundsounds]

45 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I missed nothing of your comment - I merely point out that humans have very poor/nil ability to judge air speed, when at altitude (probably above 100 ft from  the surface). The " ..appropriate configuration and the appropriate attitude and power setting.." is all very well, until you start down Base/Final (changing all three of the settings you have quoted) to an unfamiliar runway in gusting conditions, with no ASI.

 

Not suggesting it can't be done (as you have pointed out and I have done on at least two occasions) however it's a long way outside my comfort zone and I expect the same for most recreational level pilots.

 

You can't escape the species limitations which can, to some extent, be mitigated by remaining cool, applying much of what you suggest  - Give me an ASI to be sure (I have a backup unit in my aircraft).😈

Your response simply reinforces my comments. You do not need to nor should judge / sense airspeed, particularly when below 100’ AGL, the effect of wind has resulted in many low level stalls by mistaking ground speed as airspeed.

You need to know the appropriate attitudes and power settings for various configurations and phases of flight. If they are set the airspeed will follow, no judgement required. I have logged over 6500 hours of flight instruction in tandem seating aeroplanes without ready access to flight instruments. This taught me to rely on attitude and airspeed, which I had been taught but really only made sense when that’s all I had. Students would often look around and ask where my ASI, ALT, Tacho were hidden as I was able to fly so accurately - nothing to with any special skills, just because I was flying visually attitude and setting power by ear. Until you are actively taught these skills you won’t develop them. 

You should be setting the appropriate power and attitude for the phase of flight, allow them to take effect, trim, then check airspeed.
I’ll guarantee your backup ASI uses a common pitot / static source, so will only display same invalid reading. Most errors are the caused by a fault in the pitot / static system. 

[facthunter]

Sitting down the back of a plane as a Passenger I can generally tell when the Landing is not going to be good without looking at ANY instrument IF you have a bit of a view out of any window. with a forward aspect. Nev

Edited Thursday at 02:51 AM by facthunter

[skippydiesel]

"I’ll guarantee your backup ASI uses a common pitot / static source, so will only display same invalid reading.

 

True, if this was the only  fault scenario - see below;

 

Most errors are the caused by a fault in the pitot / static system. "

 

That is until your EFB displays a large red cross - ADAHRS modul no longer working.

😈

[Arron25]

On 19/02/2025 at 3:25 PM, jackc said:

Just my useless opinion here. The technology in these aircraft is too overwhelming for many older students, to come to grips with.

Glass Cockpits should be an endorsement only, not a training platform.

Only fixed pitch props as well. Hiding in my bomb shelter!

My stepson is a Driver Examiner... has found the 'kids' that turn up in their semi-autonomous new cars.. they 'can't' drive as the car is 'assisting' way too much. and testing is done with it Off

Same with the 'Glass' what to do when the lights go out???

[facthunter]

Enter the  REAL world, for a brief time   Nev

[Thruster88]

51 minutes ago, Arron25 said:

My stepson is a Driver Examiner... has found the 'kids' that turn up in their semi-autonomous new cars.. they 'can't' drive as the car is 'assisting' way too much. and testing is done with it Off

Same with the 'Glass' what to do when the lights go out???

There are always backup systems on certified IFR aircraft. 

[facthunter]

Provided you know the one you're referencing is US,  and you have time to look elsewhere. Never rely wholly on just one instrument.   SCAN.   Nev

[BurnieM]

I am 68 and currently flying with a Dynon EFIS.

I find it faster to pull info from than a six pack.

It is more what you have the hours on as to which is more usable to you.

 

This plane has a backup EFIS with its own ADAHRS which I understand is more of a failure point than the EFIS itself.

The PFD also has a backup battery. 

Its pretty common to have a backup instrument and even a backup battery with a VFR EFIS setup 

ie Garmin G3X Touch with G5 and battery.

 

Edited yesterday at 12:22 AM by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, BurnieM said:

I am 68 and currently flying with a Dynon EFIS.

I find it faster to pull info from than a six pack.

It is more what you have the hours on as to which is more usable to you.

 

This plane has a backup EFIS with its own ADAHRS which I understand is more of a failure point than the EFIS itself.

The PFD also has a backup battery. 

Its pretty common to have a backup instrument and even a backup battery with a VFR EFIS setup 

ie Garmin G3X Touch with G5 and battery.

 

FYI - My Dynon SkyView ADAHRS module failed without warning, before Christmas just gone.  Long story short - just picked up my brand new (not repaired/refurbished) modul. Although it had only done 132 hrs,  the purchase date put it out of warranty - so full price on the new. No explanation as to why the original module failed. Does not inspire confidence.😈

[facthunter]

Mechanical Gyro Gauges cost the earth.  Nev