VFR into IMC

[johnm]

A recent Dan Gryder Utube video;

 

A post / comment by an instructor;

 

interesting technique when in IMC by mistake / error or terror - no hands on yoke - just use your rudder for turns

 

........... for anyone to comment

 

[facthunter]

I don't like it. Easy to check out with a qualified pilot beside you and you  under the hood.. You need a gyro instrument really, The normal compass has errors (turning and acceleration) that require a lot of practice with to use to keep a straight course OR do a gentle turn  The usual altimeter has Hysteresis and lags consequently. Better with an IVSI.  Nev

[Garfly]

I think the technique described (in the OP) implies having a working AH and DG.

Partial panel would take the crisis to another level.

But yes, worth testing oneself out on, under qualified supervision.

IMHO, the method does have the benefit of simplicity - which may be key when panic threatens.

[facthunter]

Wouldn't work with some planes that aren't spiral stable  You MUST roll the wings level with ailerons quickly. Nev.

[Thruster88]

I think the student pilot in the Dan video had done the 3? hours required for his PPL when he crashed. He was cross country solo standard. This would make a good video for RAAus student pilots as to why VMC must be avoided. I like Dan's videos because they show the human impact that these avoidable "accidents " have.

 

 

[facthunter]

Everyone thinks they will always know which way "DOWN" is . Not so.  Nev

[Red]

You read the comments on youtube videos?

[Garfly]

10 minutes ago, Red said:

You read the comments on youtube videos?

Yes, I do ... with the same amount of discernment that I read comments on internet forums.

To dismiss all is as foolish as to accept all.

[Area-51]

Quickest way to get into a death spiral; this idea is BS. If you have no turn coordinator altimeter vsi or appropriate training there's a fantastic chance nobody in the aircraft will be arriving home for mars bars; go try it on Xplane and see what happens. At least that way you can pick and choose the arrival scenery and season for the crash site...

[Red]

2 hours ago, Garfly said:

Yes, I do ... with the same amount of discernment that I read comments on internet forums.

To dismiss all is as foolish as to accept all.

I havnt got the time to filter through the rubbish, I just dont read them, nice back hander btw🤣

[Garfly]

4 hours ago, Area-51 said:

Quickest way to get into a death spiral; this idea is BS. If you have no turn coordinator altimeter vsi or appropriate training there's a fantastic chance nobody in the aircraft will be arriving home for mars bars; go try it on Xplane and see what happens. At least that way you can pick and choose the arrival scenery and season for the crash site...

But which idea, exactly, are you saying is BS?  Nobody on here - or even the benighted YT Commenter - suggests anything to contradict "If you have no turn coordinator altimeter vsi or appropriate training there's a fantastic chance nobody in the aircraft will be arriving home"  Almost everyone in aviation holds to that idea; a truism.

 

That being the case, no one really needs to be marched off to an X-Plane sim to "see what happens"  (even absent panic and spatial disorientation).

 

The instructor quoted in the YouTube comment (in the OP) said this:

 

've always taught all of my students how to maintain control of the aircraft in IMC by performing the technique described by all Cessna operating handbooks for an emergency entry into the clouds. First, lower your power setting and re-trim. Next, and most important, keep your right hand on the throttle and LET GO OF THE YOKE and put your left hand in you lap. Until you're VMC again and can see, maintain your heading (and wings level) with your feet/rudders only. Any turns required are done with your feet only. If you require a climb or descent, it can be done by adding / reducing power only. You'll never lose control of the airplane like this. Get on the radio and declare an emergency and get help to find VFR weather.

 

So I for one (zero actual IMC/IFR) would be very open to hearing from those who know, about the problems with this long taught technique (for Cessna trainers, at least).  But, to be useful, it would have to offer an alternate method working from the same scenario.  That is: sudden inadvertent IMC; pilot with little/no experience in cloud; typical (Cessna) six-pack still working (IMC only just entered) and predictable Human Factors (like the urge to pull to save oneself) likely taking hold.  

 

Under those conditions what might a non-BS idea look like; a better long-shot on a sticky wicket than the one Cessna proposed for years.

 

 

BTW, was it not ATC's "hands-off" advice to the pilot in the famous "Mayday! Mayday! Mayday! I'm gonna crash!!!" affair, that was credited with saving his life.

 

FWIW there's an interesting review of that incident (and VFR>>IMC generally) in this video by airline pilot "74 Gear"

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnb4qCfp0mo

 

But for those with no time to waste gazing at the GoogTube (Red!!! I'm lookin' at you!  ; -)

you'll get the gist in less than a minute here:  20:23 >> 21:00

 

Edited 17 hours ago by Garfly

[Underwood]

Reading that comment especially this sentence: 

Quote

You'll never lose control of the airplane like this

Makes me suspect the commenter is likely not an instructor

Youtube Comments sections do seem to attract the Walter Mittys of this world

[turboplanner]

6 hours ago, Garfly said:

Under those conditions what might a non-BS idea look like; a better long-shot on a sticky wicket than the one Cessna proposed for years.

In Australia we are taught the secondary effect of controls.

The secondary effect of rudder is roll.

You're in the cloud, there's no horizon, you're in a slight turn so the G force has shifted off vertical - it now feels like you're straight and level, but then a wind gust lifts the inside wing.............

 

Also in Australia we have the Visual Flight Rules Guide which reminds us we don't follow the superseded rules any more - we must be clear of cloud and have 5000 metres forward view.

 

I haven't checked ATSB to see how this is working out, but I don't see that bunch of May fatalities we used to have.

 

 

 

 

[skippydiesel]

11 hours ago, Area-51 said:

Quickest way to get into a death spiral; this idea is BS. If you have no turn coordinator altimeter vsi or appropriate training there's a fantastic chance nobody in the aircraft will be arriving home for mars bars; go try it on Xplane and see what happens. At least that way you can pick and choose the arrival scenery and season for the crash site...

There is a flaw in your statement ".... try it on Xplane ..."

There is no X plane.

Even I, a relativly inexperienced pilot, know that all aircraft do not have the same flight characteristics.

 

My GA traing was almost all Cessna  - they have incredibly stable flight characteristics. Trim for straight and level, hands  & feet off - thats what you get for hours. Change power they Climb/Descend straight ahead.

With the proviso you know where you are (not so hard in the era of GPS/moving map displays etc), unlikly to encounter ice,and know the cloud base/height, a controlled Climb/Descend, through cloud, in a Cessna 150-172 is not as challenging as many make out.

Unnerving Yes!  Do not try & control the aircraft, beyond initial setup and power change. Just let it do its thing and you will pop out above/below the cloud.

 

NOTE! I am not advocating VFR pilots, who find themselves contemplating entry to IMC, do this. Simply saying DO NOT PANNIK, consider your practical options. If in an inherently stable aircraft one option may be to enter cloud.

 

I now fly RAA - very different. Straight and level hands/feet off, is an aspiration that can not be achieved for more than a few moments. IMC (without competent auto pilot )in one of these little beauties would be challenging to the point of suicide.

 

[facthunter]

IF you haven't done any In cloud flying then do some (under the hood. supervised ) and then return  to the conversation  My post above about not being able to tell  where DOWN  IS, is the crux of the matter. In a Basic simulator you don't experience the disorientating forces you do in  REAL situation.  If you have an autopilot use that. IT doesn't KNOW it's in cloud. Go into a COMPLETELY dark room and turn around about four  times. 

.   Recovery from a Spiral has to be quickly executed. (with ailerons)  because SPEED is building up fast and your instinct is to pull the stick back. Nev

[Area-51]

"Which part of the idea is BS?", ok, will spell it all out for basic clarification...

 

- reduce power, retrim, hands off the yoke, use rudder only for turns...

 

Ok, we are flying straight and level at reduced speed; we do not know what that speed should be reduced to or even why, but the nose has pitched down and the trim will need to be adjusted to a more nose up attitude; i think we are flying straight and level again; great...

 

Now we will turn with just the rudder; great... we are turning, and what is the secondary affect of turning with our rudder? Roll... we are rolling and our hands are off the yoke... What is the primary affect of rolling? Gravity... we are gravitating towards the ground... What is the secondary affect of roll? Yaw... we are yawing into the turn... Our bum is telling us "we are climbing, good, we are saved"... now we are climbing faster, "something does not add up here"... we keep climbing faster, "this is weird, now i am uncomfortable, we are still climbing, my hands are off the yoke, and the power is now at idle, but we are climbing..."... "why is my altimeter dial moving backwards so fast when i am in a climb!".

 

Again, unless the pilot has basic ppl instrument training practical knowledge, no mars bars for dinner.

 

It is rare but widespread blanket cloud can form pretty instantly under certain conditions; VFR you have margins to follow to mitigate the chances of being engulfed in cloud without warning. The margins are there partly for this, and partly so VFR remain visible to other aircraft.

 

The safest thing to do is wings level, straight ahead, cruise climb attitude, check your fuel reserve, mark your current position fix, squawk 66, contact ground for assistance, check for surrounding terrain/obstructions if able.

 

There are additional things like monitoring engine speed or if flying a csu, manifold pressure to assist in determining transitional climb descend pitch rate changes.

 

Things go more wrong when turns are brought into the imc scenario.

[facthunter]

IF the ball is not centred you will feel a sideways force in your seat. It's unbalanced flight. (skidding).  Nev

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, Area-51 said:

"Which part of the idea is BS?", ok, will spell it all out for basic clarification...

 

- reduce power, retrim, hands off the yoke, use rudder only for turns...

 

Ok, we are flying straight and level at reduced speed; we do not know what that speed should be reduced to or even why, but the nose has pitched down and the trim will need to be adjusted to a more nose up attitude; i think we are flying straight and level again; great...

 

Now we will turn with just the rudder; great... we are turning, and what is the secondary affect of turning with our rudder? Roll... we are rolling and our hands are off the yoke... What is the primary affect of rolling? Gravity... we are gravitating towards the ground... What is the secondary affect of roll? Yaw... we are yawing into the turn... Our bum is telling us "we are climbing, good, we are saved"... now we are climbing faster, "something does not add up here"... we keep climbing faster, "this is weird, now i am uncomfortable, we are still climbing, my hands are off the yoke, and the power is now at idle, but we are climbing..."... "why is my altimeter dial moving backwards so fast when i am in a climb!".

 

Again, unless the pilot has basic ppl instrument training practical knowledge, no mars bars for dinner.

 

It is rare but widespread blanket cloud can form pretty instantly under certain conditions; VFR you have margins to follow to mitigate the chances of being engulfed in cloud without warning. The margins are there partly for this, and partly so VFR remain visible to other aircraft.

 

The safest thing to do is wings level, straight ahead, cruise climb attitude, check your fuel reserve, mark your current position fix, squawk 66, contact ground for assistance, check for surrounding terrain/obstructions if able.

 

There are additional things like monitoring engine speed or if flying a csu, manifold pressure to assist in determining transitional climb descend pitch rate changes.

 

Things go more wrong when turns are brought into the imc scenario.

Thanks, A-51 for taking the effort to engage with the ideas.  I can well imagine the scene of confusion and disorientation you describe.  I totally believe it without needing to experience it.  But it leaves me to guess that that classic 'hands-off' strategy was invented after they figured that no more chaos would likely ensue compared to "hands-on" methods; and that, with a bit of luck, you'd have a better shot at a happy outcome.

 

Anyway, the idea still seems to persist, for example, as the takeaway from the "Mayday, Mayday, Mayday!!!  I'm gonna crash!!!" story. [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fnb4qCfp0mo ]

 

Of course, the secondary effect of rudder being roll was the whole point of the "Cessna" method as outlined in the OP YT Comment.  The hope seems to have been that a panicked VFR pilot is more likely to be able to stay wings level using rudder alone - inputs just sufficient to prevent turning in the first place.  They must have concluded that 'hands-off the yoke' was the only way to prevent the panic pull that'd end in a stall/spin.  Game over even quicker, even surer.  Still no Mars Bars.

 

But anyway, my own sense of the safest thing to do for VFR pilots caught out is, pretty much as you say "wings level, straight ahead, cruise climb attitude, etc".  Which is why I've never felt comfortable with the often suggested immediate 180 turnback.   Indeed "Things go more wrong when turns are brought into the imc scenario."

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by Garfly

[Garfly]

10 hours ago, turboplanner said:

In Australia we are taught the secondary effect of controls.

The secondary effect of rudder is roll.

Well they must be taught the same in the US, given it's the whole point of (American) Comment in the OP:

 

've always taught  ...  the technique described by all Cessna operating handbooks for an emergency entry into the clouds ...

maintain your heading (and wings level) with your feet/rudders only

 

10 hours ago, turboplanner said:

You're in the cloud, there's no horizon, you're in a slight turn so the G force has shifted off vertical - it now feels like you're straight and level, but then a wind gust lifts the inside wing.............

Okay, a more fullsome exposition of the thread title. 

 

 

10 hours ago, turboplanner said:

Also in Australia we have the Visual Flight Rules Guide which reminds us we don't follow the superseded rules any more - we must be clear of cloud and have 5000 metres forward view.

What superseded rules are you talking about?  In any case, you ought to know we must still stay 1000' feet from cloud vertically and 1500m. horizontally between 3,000' and 10,000' when above 1000' AGL.  

 

But yes, you're right.  In Australia, inadvertent entry into IMC by VFR pilots remains illegal. And the liability is strict.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited just now by Garfly