VFR into IMC

[BrendAn]

interesting thread.  i got back into training today after a few months off.

we did a brush up on effects of controls.  left and right turns rudder only then aileron only. 

flying straight and level at 55 knts with flaps. then turning right and left in that configuration.

instead of touch and goes we did missed approachs , flew down the runway 50 ft off the ground working my feet to keep on the center line.

it was a great morning getting used to the tecnam again. 

a bit off topic except for the effects of controls i guess.

[kgwilson]

Most Cessnas i've flown have enough instruments to keep you S&L. The 5 hours under the hood for PPL is the best training you can get to prepare for an inadvertent VMC to IMC situation. The compass will keep you pointed in one direction, The VSI will allow you to stay at the same altitude, The turn co-ordinator/ balance ball will allow you to keep S&L in balanced flight. These are the minimums. An AH is better for everything except direction. The problem is without this training which includes recovery from unusual attitudes plus retention of the skills, encountering it for the first time can cause panic and all the knowledge goes out the window & you have the classic 178 seconds to live.

[Garfly]

56 minutes ago, kgwilson said:

 encountering it for the first time can cause panic and all the knowledge goes out the window & you have the classic 178 seconds to live.

Yeah, and I'm guessing that was the thinking behind the Cessna POH (as per OP).

So, short of panic, a better idea than hands-off the yoke seems to be what you did.

And yes, some refresher hood-time sounds good - especially if it happens to includes some supervised real IMC.

 

 

 

 

Edited Sunday at 04:30 AM by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

3 hours ago, kgwilson said:

Most Cessnas i've flown have enough instruments to keep you S&L. The 5 hours under the hood for PPL is the best training you can get to prepare for an inadvertent VMC to IMC situation. The compass will keep you pointed in one direction, The VSI will allow you to stay at the same altitude, The turn co-ordinator/ balance ball will allow you to keep S&L in balanced flight. These are the minimums. An AH is better for everything except direction. The problem is without this training which includes recovery from unusual attitudes plus retention of the skills, encountering it for the first time can cause panic and all the knowledge goes out the window & you have the classic 178 seconds to live.

IF you set up a Cessna 172, straight & level, in slow cruise, you will not need any instruments, other than throttle, to commence a 500 ft/min (or less if you wish) climb or descent.

 

Your hands in particular should be no where near the yoke, best to keep the feet off as well but not as likly as hands to start trying to correct a PERCEIVED change of attitude.

Personally I would not worry about a slow compass progression but again if you insist, LIGHT corrective pressure on the rudder pedal may be okay.

 

I speculate that a VFR pilot, trying to use instruments to fly in IMC, is just asking for a problem to manifest, that you won't be able to correct.😈

[Garfly]

2 hours ago, skippydiesel said:

I speculate that a VFR pilot, trying to use instruments to fly in IMC, is just asking for a problem to manifest, that you won't be able to correct.😈

But this is about suddenly, inadvertently entering IMC, barely trained, unprepared.

I'd say NOT "trying to use instruments" (calmly, methodically as in kgwilson's tale) would certainly be asking for a problem.

 

[kgwilson]

The training under the hood consists of a continuous scan of the instruments to determine how to correct any change in speed, attitude etc. The instructor will deliberately throw the aircraft in different directions and attitudes trying to confuse you and then say "Your aircraft". You then have to get it flying S&L as quickly as possible without stalling. I remember once he said "That was good when I handed over we were going straight up". I had no idea other than I knew I had to get back to S&L. It should be part of the RA syllabus even if angles and unusual attitudes are not as severe. That training served me well about 30 years ago.

[johnm]

if you have time to look at Utube ............. you probably have time to read / scan some comments. Who knows if the poster was an instructor (at face value they are)

 

............... there could be 'some' truth to the technique ........... that's why I posted it ................ something good might come out of it - or perhaps it can be dispelled  

 

(a trimmed aeroplane is easy to fly with just you feet - you can lean back and relax - try it - I am not qualified to make this statement, do not try this at home)

 

I agree with Skippyd about 3 posts above ............ no need to be doing barrell rolls with the yoke

 

not being an instructor nor a brain surgeon; but: ................ it could be a nuerological thing - your hands are to close to your brain

 

your feet are further away so they interpret logic better - maybe using the middle ear as a movement sensor

[skippydiesel]

12 hours ago, Garfly said:

But this is about suddenly, inadvertently entering IMC, barely trained, unprepared.

I'd say NOT "trying to use instruments" (calmly, methodically as in kgwilson's tale) would certainly be asking for a problem.

 

The problems are:

• VFR pilots are not trained to fly in IMC/ fully utilised flight instruments.
• Humans tend to respond to very strong physiological signals that may not represent the actual orientation of the aircraft.
• IFR pilots are trained to ignore the above and also to have an appropriate response to what the flight instruments are telling them.
• It's not just the pilot - the aircraft must also have the required complement of IFR instruments, maintained to the appropriate standard.
• Most aviators accept that intensive IFR training/recency is required to safely fly in IMC.

IF a VFR pilot, finding themselves in a difficult situaton (entry to IMC) it would be down right stupid/likly suicidal to the attempt to fly as an IFR pilot. Far better to allow the aircraft (ultra stable one like a C172)  to depart, using power, from a well trimmed straight & level - no hands,  no feet,  Do NOT ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THE AIRCRAFT it will make a stable descent/climb, as you have decided, without any further input.

 

NOTE: I am not advocating a VFR pilot fly into IMC far better they take every precaution/action/alternative  to avoid such satiations.😈

Edited Sunday at 10:41 PM by skippydiesel

[skippydiesel]

Thought I might follow the above with this comment:

 

If you close your eyes and get someone to push you hard enough, so that you may fall - the urge to "save " yourself is almost impossible to ignore. This is your middle ear (primary balance instrument) galvanising your body to save itself - this is what can/will happen to an untrained pilot entering IMC. 

 

If your eyes are open, you can orient your position relative to structure or the horizon - not available in IMC.

 

Not a medico/biologist - My rudimentary understanding of how the middle ear (semicircular canals) operates is - it's a fluid filled structure that has small hairs on its inner surfaces. The hairs are connected to nerves. The fluid moves, the hairs move in sympathy and send information to the involuntary part of the brain telling us that we are upright/falling, the brain responds to correct the situaton. This information is then used to take action to maintain stability.

 

As a fluid filled structure it responds to gravity and G forces. The latter can/does "trick" the fluid into thinking down is in the direction of the force - thus the pilot can be in a spiral descent (even upside down) thinking they are straight & level.

 

Worse the aircraft can be straight & level and the pilots gets "the leans" meaning they have become disoriented and are convinced the aircraft is turning/climbing/ descending (middle ear) and they must take corrective action - this will kill you. Do not touch the controls.😈

Edited Sunday at 11:11 PM by skippydiesel

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, johnm said:

if you have time to look at Utube ............. you probably have time to read / scan some comments. Who knows if the poster was an instructor (at face value they are)

 

............... there could be 'some' truth to the technique ........... that's why I posted it ................ something good might come out of it - or perhaps it can be dispelled  

 

(a trimmed aeroplane is easy to fly with just you feet - you can lean back and relax - try it - I am not qualified to make this statement, do not try this at home)

 

I agree with Skippyd about 3 posts above ............ no need to be doing barrell rolls with the yoke

 

not being an instructor nor a brain surgeon; but: ................ it could be a nuerological thing - your hands are to close to your brain

 

your feet are further away so they interpret logic better - maybe using the middle ear as a movement sensor

and now we finally get to the crux of the matter, the middle ear; I think you might be talking about this: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2018/01/dont-believe-your-ears-2/ which, hopefully all Instructors will have taught their students about.

 

[Garfly]

51 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

The problems are:

• VFR pilots are not trained to fly in IMC/ fully utilised flight instruments.
• Humans tend to respond to very strong physiological signals that may not represent the actual orientation of the aircraft.
• IFR pilots are trained to ignore the above and also to have an appropriate response to what the flight instruments are telling them.
• It's not just the pilot - the aircraft must also have the required complement of IFR instruments, maintained to the appropriate standard.
• Most aviators accept that intensive IFR training/recency is required to safely fly in IMC.

IF a VFR pilot, finding themselves in a difficult situaton (entry to IMC) it would be down right stupid/likly suicidal to the attempt to fly as an IFR pilot. Far better to allow the aircraft (ultra stable one like a C172)  to depart, using power, from a well trimmed straight & level - no hands,  no feet,  Do NOT ATTEMPT TO CONTROL THE AIRCRAFT it will make a stable descent/climb, as you have decided, without any further input.

 

NOTE: I am not advocating a VFR pilot fly into IMC far better they take every precaution/action/alternative  to avoid such satiations.😈

 

 

Of course, your bullet list regarding the problem is perfectly well accepted by everyone.  All those points are the background assumptions for the main issue of the thread, which is something like:  Given inadvertent IMC penetration by the untrained, is the old "hands-off the yoke" advice still - and in all cases - considered good by those who know.

 

(Those who don't know might do well to ask questions and listen up.  After all, it's all about us.)

 

Anyway, Skippy, as to your own proposed method which takes "hands-off" even further (feet-off too), well, I for one, don't buy it.  But what would I know?

 

In any case, regarding what you reckon to be "downright stupid" I urge you to read again kgwilson's account (above) of his own unintended encounter with IMC as a VFR pilot. One of my take-aways from it is that once you're in it you ARE an "IFR pilot" and you'd best start acting like one (though if panic's taken over, all bets are off). Another take-away is that panic is not called for and not inevitable. Another is that under-the-hood refresher work is good insurance against accidental penetration of cloud.

 

 

[Garfly]

1 hour ago, turboplanner said:

and now we finally get to the crux of the matter, the middle ear; I think you might be talking about this: https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2018/01/dont-believe-your-ears-2/ which, hopefully all Instructors will have taught their students about.

 

It may be "the crux" of the matter but it's also an obvious assumption behind this entire conversation. 

It's the only reason Mr. Cessna would ever have suggested so radical a solution as "hands off the yoke".

[facthunter]

I don't think "Mr Cessna" would suggest it's use in other than "certain" Cessna's  either.  ( Liability) Instant IMC would be very rare.  There's usually plenty of warning Also Under the hood (without cheating) is a very good way (SAFE , LEGAL & Accepted) to train for the IMC situation . Nev

[onetrack]

I was under the impression that the core aim of all pilot training, is to avoid panic when upsets occur, and to avoid the ensuing disastrous mistakes, that panic would bring about.

[Garfly]

3 hours ago, johnm said:

if you have time to look at Utube ............. you probably have time to read / scan some comments. Who knows if the poster was an instructor (at face value they are)

But even in the unlikely event of this Commenter not being what or who he claims, that "hands off the yoke" method has been around for a long time and is worth re-visiting in any case.

 

We could try addressing a Comment with a Comment; this one was posted on a Pilot Workshops article (below) a few years back (And yes, this could be an imposter too, but we have to use our heads a bit.  And, in any case, accept that, as in any field, expert opinions differ.

 

• • • • flyboy1423g 7 years ago
        • Jim, because your brain doesn’t work like an autopilot. A properly trimmed airplane doesn’t go out of control when it enters clouds, but your head will. The hands in lap/rudder only technique goes back about 50 years or more and it works. You should try it sometime, the day your AP and GPS systems go flooey it could save your life. Also remember that the DG is as important as the attitude indicator in instrument flying since the airplane won’t turn when wings are level. Use the rudder to initiate the turn or to stop a turn and you don’t upset the wings natural stability unlike the ailerons which do. How can you tell which way its banked/turning from the DG only? Bigger numbers to the right, smaller numbers to the left always works and easy to remember. PRACTICE this technique it is a life saver.

•  

 

VFR into IMC - PilotWorkshops

PILOTWORKSHOP.COM

---

Bob: “As with any emergency, remember the big three; maintain aircraft control, analyze the situation, and take proper action. Obviously maintaining aircraft control is the most important element. I...

 

 

The issue has been tossed around on here, too, for a long time:

 

 

 

Edited Monday at 01:38 AM by Garfly

[skippydiesel]

47 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

 

Of course, your bullet list regarding the problem is perfectly well accepted by everyone.  All those points are the background assumptions for the main issue of the thread, which is something like:  Given inadvertent IMC penetration by the untrained, is the old "hands-off the yoke" advice still - and in all cases - considered good by those who know.

 

(Those who don't know might do well to ask questions and listen up.  After all, it's all about us.)

 

Anyway, Skippy, as to your own proposed method which takes "hands-off" even further (feet-off too), well, I for one, don't buy it.  But what would I know?

 

In any case, regarding what you reckon to be "downright stupid" I urge you to read again kgwilson's account (above) of his own unintended encounter with IMC as a VFR pilot. One of my take-aways from it is that once you're in it you ARE an "IFR pilot" and you'd best start acting like one (though if panic's taken over, all bets are off). Another take-away is that panic is not called for and not inevitable. Another is that under-the-hood refresher work is good insurance against accidental penetration of cloud.

 

 

I trained in C172 & 150's -

Once in cruise flight, it is very easy to trim for continued straight & level - feet & hands off  (if you wish). The aircraft will continue on the trimed heading & level for long periods.

Fuel burn, Pax movement will have some small input. Changes in wind speed & direction will also have an influence, principally to heading & not usually sudden.

The above characteristics allow the VFR pilot, on entering IMC to ignore the strong physiological signals, usually at variance from what was actually happening - that is the aircraft continues on same heading, altitude.

To change the altitude the pilot need only increase/reduce power. This will not change the aircraft heading (induce a turn). Will cause it to climb/descend in a wings level attitude. Subject to there being no ice, knowing the cloud base/top and clearance to terrain, the aircraft will emerge from the cloud, allowing the pilot to continue to a safe landing.

 

Note: Reduction in power/entry to cloud ( moisture) may lead to carburettor icing - apply carburettor heat before entering cloud)

 

This is NOT MY METHOD simply what I was taught and experienced while being trained.. 

 

"once you're in it you ARE an "IFR pilot" and you'd best start acting like one"

This is incredibly dangerous talk. Should the untrained attempt to manoeuvre the aircraft, they likly to be facing their maker in short order.

To remain current, IFR pilots must train at frequent (?) intervals. How do you expect a completely untrained VFR pilot to instantly acquire the skills/mindset, vital to safely navigate IMC? 

 

As a strictly VFR pilot, I think it's time to leave this conversation. I am concerned by the inference/statements that suggest that it is possible to acquire IFR skills, when faced with what, for most, will be a very tense, verging on/actual panic situaton.

😈

[turboplanner]

36 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I was under the impression that the core aim of all pilot training, is to avoid panic when upsets occur, and to avoid the ensuing disastrous mistakes, that panic would bring about.

..........and it appears that some of us were trained that way, but a lot of us were not, so there's a job the has be done. 

[Garfly]

7 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

This is incredibly dangerous talk. Should the untrained attempt to manoeuvre the aircraft, they likly to be facing their maker in short order.

 

That's funny, I too was trying to cut off "incredibly dangerous talk" at the pass.

 

 

 

[turboplanner]

18 minutes ago, Garfly said:

 

That's funny, I too was trying to cut off "incredibly dangerous talk" at the pass.

 

 

 

Well you started that "incredibly dangerous talk" and it's now got wings.

[Garfly]

5 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

..........and it appears that some of us were trained that way, but a lot of us were not, so there's a job the has be done. 

But then some, even among the well-trained cohorts of yore have revealed failings of an HF nature.

Those'd be beyond any job that could be done on them.

[Garfly]

1 minute ago, turboplanner said:

Well you started that "incredibly dangerous talk" and it's now got wings.

Put up or shut up.

[facthunter]

RAAus DID HF  for everybody. CASA directed. Wasn't handled well. Plenty of crusty old Barstewards thought it was BS. Needs to be a constant  up dated thing.  CASA  didn't want it considered in Investigations though (Guess why)  Insurance companies gave credits for it.(Wisely) Another failed opportunity.   Nev

[facthunter]

 The thread starter HERE Is "VFR into IMC"..   Good subject for consideration and an opportunity to LEARN.  Nev

[turboplanner]

25 minutes ago, Garfly said:

Put up or shut up.

I don't think you understand; it's already out there.

[Garfly]

35 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

I don't think you understand; it's already out there.

 

So you can't put up.  Thought not.  Pathetic.