Regarding private landing strip

[skippydiesel]

2 minutes ago, RegularPerson said:

................... have safety concerns and not to fly over our home but keep at 500ft. 

The 500ft, above terrain,regulation does not apply to landing /taking off aircarft.

The pilot in command  (PIC) of an aircraft has the responsibility for the safe/responsable operation of that craft. His her decisions right/wrong have legal power & consequences.

You would be better approaching the pilot/neighbour to ask (not tell) about options that may be available eg adjusting his approach/departure to one side of your house/property.😈

 

[RegularPerson]

Just now, skippydiesel said:

The 500ft, above terrain,regulation does not apply to landing /taking off aircarft.

The pilot in command  (PIC) of an aircraft has the responsibility for the safe/responsable operation of that craft. His her decisions right/wrong have legal power & consequences.

You would be better approaching the pilot/neighbour to ask (not tell) about options that may be available eg adjusting his approach/departure to one side of your house/property.😈

 

When we wrote the message on Saturday, we didn't know they owned the plane and that if it was their friend, not to do that. They have been there a year and we have never seen the plane until now, nevermind having even met them yet. 

[Marty_d]

Without knowing the exact situation it's hard to know whether the landing path is unsafe or not.

Many airfields have houses up to the boundary fence, I remember the first time I flew into Adelaide (passenger) being shocked at how low we approached over the rooftops.  And that's 90 tons of metal, meat and fuel travelling at 135kn, not 600kg doing about 50.

As a father I can also understand your concerns about your kids safety.

 

You're doing the right thing by getting information. With forums like this you'll get some different views. What I can agree with others about is that good communication with your neighbour is the most important thing.

If you take a friendly approach, express interest in his aircraft from your engineering perspective, maybe he offers you a flight... then that's a good starting point to discuss your concerns. Maybe he can allay them, maybe you can work out a system where he lets you know his estimated arrival time so you and the kids can be out of the property while he lands... something like that.

 

One thing is for sure, if both parties get upset and angry - you because you think he's callously putting your kids at risk, him because he thinks you're selfishly stopping his hobby... then no one wins and it'll be hell living next door to each other.

[skippydiesel]

3 minutes ago, RegularPerson said:

When we wrote the message on Saturday, we didn't know they owned the plane and that if it was their friend, not to do that. They have been there a year and we have never seen the plane until now, nevermind having even met them yet. 

That your residency  predates (significantly?) your neighbours moving in, will lend moral weight, if not legal right, to your argument, in that you live where you live because it offers a particular environment,  that has now been compromised.

Remember that your neighbour has likly done nothing legal wrong. If this turns out to be correct, change will only come about with good will on both sides.

Be very careful with your statements - unsubstantiated speculation/observation, emotive talk,  will likly see you loose.

Record all contact/conversation, with your neighbour and any relevant authority that you may consult with on the matter.

Should you be unable to get a satisfactory compromise, take heart, the long term use of recreational machines (for that is what this is) is that initial enthusiasm wanes. The every good flying day action, tends to diminishes quite quickly, to the occasional flight - it's not unusual for such aircraft to start to gather dust & cobwebs, fall out of service completely, to be sold off years later having not been flown.............??😈

[Marty_d]

18 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

..its not unusual for such aircraft to start to gather dust & cobwebs, fall out of service completely, to be sold off years later having not been flown.............??😈

Jeez Skippy, that might be encouraging for him but it's not for the rest of us...

[ClintonB]

Both Marty and Regular person have answered some questions playing in my mind, I was not going to post but have thought about my comments before doings so as i do not know either party.

I live in a rural area in the Mid North Coast hinterland. When I purchased my property i was supplied a council letter advising me of the fact the area is rural, you cannot complain about rural noises and operations. I already understood this being a country person, but i can see why they issue the letter with a lot of city dwellers purchasing in the area for holiday homes.

My driveway adjacent neighbour has lived on his 10Acre lot for 40 years. He runs sheep for eating on his land, Kept his 2 concrete pumping trucks parked there (day Job) Plants a few crops of  melons and Pumpkins on a patch that other neighbours let him used in return for keeping the area mowed, planted and tidy. He had a 2 acre lot he split off and gave away to a daughter for a dwelling, she sold and people built on it, no probs for 8 years. Then the small lot was sold again. New people from the blue mountains area bought it. Instagram Yoga teaching types from Brazil originally. Suddenly he is getting complaints about sheep noises, riding his quad too much (it is hilly and he has 1 leg (prosthetic for other), tractor noises, burning off complaints. To top it off they pushed the boundary fence over, because it spoilt the view of the creek for their yoga videos. A creek they wouldn't even see if my neighbour didn't keep the vines and scrub cleared back for his melon crop. They, being internet savvy, started petitioning the council about every complaint, and because the squeaky wheel minority always get greased they achieved getting our area rezoned residential- putting everyone's rates up, having the trucks removed from his property as no business could be conducted on the land- his employees and himself drove off at 6 every morning to work on construction sites not on his land. Along with creating extreme animosity among neighbours from calling the police if he lights a burn off pile on his own land, taking out restraining orders against him has made an unpleasant environment with an us against them type situation. This guy couldn't do enough to help when we bought our land, gave us 50,000 litres of water to help out when we first built from his tanks, helped moving big items, keeping an eye on things when we weren't there.

I tell this story as a precautionary tale, sometimes the consequences of disputes or minor differences can cause everyone some form of grief. I wasn't sure from the original post who was there first. Have you bought cheap land in the country for an idyllic lifestyle only to find there is country noises. Has he become a newly minted pilot and taken up a hobby in the last week, or was he a pilot all along and you were not aware of it- did the people sell you the dwelling because of the runway and noise then failed to mention it. I assume you are not in the town boundary and if the house is off grid it would be newer than his dwelling and maybe wasn't there when he first laid out his landing area, because people didn't do that stuff years ago, they had power lines for power.

This is not an attack on either party but points to ponder.

Like Marty said, talk to him, if he is not a cowboy and you believe he safe in his operations see if he will take you up and conduct a landing or 2 (with the missus and kids not home of course). 

Perspective may add some insight to operations and such. Even though it is a "Kit plane", someone spent possibly 2000hrs assembling and finishing the aircraft. Don't picture a model aircraft that takes a weekend or two to assemble with glue and rubber bands. I own a similar aircraft and they are sturdy, reliable , proven and perform well at slow speed and mine has 2 stroke under 600cc motor.

You never know you might become friends, A friend is far more better value than a neighbour you hate with a passion and less heartburn.

 

[CT9000]

There is also a supreme court precedent that covers this. Whilst I don't remember all the details it goes something like "the use being incidental to the primary use/purpose of the property and therefore not requiring a permit". That also means by implication that commercial operations would not be legal without a planning permit. Also if the runway were to be sealed the use would no longer be incidential.  

[RegularPerson]

56 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

That your residency  predates (significantly?) your neighbours moving in, will lend moral weight, if not legal right, to your argument, in that you live where you live because it offers a particular environment,  that has now been compromised.

Remember that your neighbour has likly done nothing legal wrong. If this turns out to be correct, change will only come about with good will on both sides.

Be very careful with your statements - unsubstantiated speculation/observation, emotive talk,  will likly see you loose.

Record all contact/conversation, with your neighbour and any relevant authority that you may consult with on the matter.

Should you be unable to get a satisfactory compromise, take heart, the long term use of recreational machines (for that is what this is) is that initial enthusiasm wanes. The every good flying day action, tends to diminishes quite quickly, to the occasional flight - it's not unusual for such aircraft to start to gather dust & cobwebs, fall out of service completely, to be sold off years later having not been flown.............??😈

 

 

Thanks for the valuable advice and insight. 

 

We bought the land in 2015 (lease the land for 6 years) and finished building in 2021 when we moved in. They moved in beginning 2024 from memory or slightly earlier.

 

I get along with all surrounding neighbours and know them all.

 

You're right, it's a moral ethical issue rather than a legal one. I hope if he does give up the hobby rather than keep flying low to my children's bedrooms, but who knows. Perhaps he might have a change of heart and find compassion and think about the children to create a new landing strip 😁

 

Again, thanks for the supportive words and it's appreciated 👍 

[RegularPerson]

12 minutes ago, ClintonB said:

Both Marty and Regular person have answered some questions playing in my mind, I was not going to post but have thought about my comments before doings so as i do not know either party.

I live in a rural area in the Mid North Coast hinterland. When I purchased my property i was supplied a council letter advising me of the fact the area is rural, you cannot complain about rural noises and operations. I already understood this being a country person, but i can see why they issue the letter with a lot of city dwellers purchasing in the area for holiday homes.

My driveway adjacent neighbour has lived on his 10Acre lot for 40 years. He runs sheep for eating on his land, Kept his 2 concrete pumping trucks parked there (day Job) Plants a few crops of  melons and Pumpkins on a patch that other neighbours let him used in return for keeping the area mowed, planted and tidy. He had a 2 acre lot he split off and gave away to a daughter for a dwelling, she sold and people built on it, no probs for 8 years. Then the small lot was sold again. New people from the blue mountains area bought it. Instagram Yoga teaching types from Brazil originally. Suddenly he is getting complaints about sheep noises, riding his quad too much (it is hilly and he has 1 leg (prosthetic for other), tractor noises, burning off complaints. To top it off they pushed the boundary fence over, because it spoilt the view of the creek for their yoga videos. A creek they wouldn't even see if my neighbour didn't keep the vines and scrub cleared back for his melon crop. They, being internet savvy, started petitioning the council about every complaint, and because the squeaky wheel minority always get greased they achieved getting our area rezoned residential- putting everyone's rates up, having the trucks removed from his property as no business could be conducted on the land- his employees and himself drove off at 6 every morning to work on construction sites not on his land. Along with creating extreme animosity among neighbours from calling the police if he lights a burn off pile on his own land, taking out restraining orders against him has made an unpleasant environment with an us against them type situation. This guy couldn't do enough to help when we bought our land, gave us 50,000 litres of water to help out when we first built from his tanks, helped moving big items, keeping an eye on things when we weren't there.

I tell this story as a precautionary tale, sometimes the consequences of disputes or minor differences can cause everyone some form of grief. I wasn't sure from the original post who was there first. Have you bought cheap land in the country for an idyllic lifestyle only to find there is country noises. Has he become a newly minted pilot and taken up a hobby in the last week, or was he a pilot all along and you were not aware of it- did the people sell you the dwelling because of the runway and noise then failed to mention it. I assume you are not in the town boundary and if the house is off grid it would be newer than his dwelling and maybe wasn't there when he first laid out his landing area, because people didn't do that stuff years ago, they had power lines for power.

This is not an attack on either party but points to ponder.

Like Marty said, talk to him, if he is not a cowboy and you believe he safe in his operations see if he will take you up and conduct a landing or 2 (with the missus and kids not home of course). 

Perspective may add some insight to operations and such. Even though it is a "Kit plane", someone spent possibly 2000hrs assembling and finishing the aircraft. Don't picture a model aircraft that takes a weekend or two to assemble with glue and rubber bands. I own a similar aircraft and they are sturdy, reliable , proven and perform well at slow speed and mine has 2 stroke under 600cc motor.

You never know you might become friends, A friend is far more better value than a neighbour you hate with a passion and less heartburn.

 

Hey Clinton, 

 

I don't at all wish for animosity. I'm a very reasonable person open to compromise. But ... It looks to me so far, they may not be willing from the indications thus far. 

 

I know as you all are pilots who may back each other up, so me coming here as a non pilot have been surprised by the support and advice. 

 

For that I'm grateful. Thank you good Pilots 🙏

Edited 6 hours ago by RegularPerson

[spacesailor]

Are you in the process of planting !

Pencil Pine trees soon . ( fast growing ) .

or

Eucalyptus Regan's.  Mountain Ash .( slow growing but super tall ) .

I have " pencil Pines " in the front garden. 

spacesailor

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, CT9000 said:

There is also a supreme court precedent that covers this. Whilst I don't remember all the details it goes something like "the use being incidental to the primary use/purpose of the property and therefore not requiring a permit". That also means by implication that commercial operations would not be legal without a planning permit. Also if the runway were to be sealed the use would no longer be incidential.  

More than one way to "skin a cat";

 

What of existing use??? Plenty of vegetable growers, around my way, that would not get approval to operate today (water catchment area) have prior use exemptions.

 

I don't think sealing a road/runway, on your own property, would usually require planning permission. Road/runway doemstic traffic whats the diff????

 

As I said as long as it's not an official LA it does not have to conform to any planning requirements😈

2 hours ago, Marty_d said:

Jeez Skippy, that might be encouraging for him but it's not for the rest of us...

True though -

I regularly hear stories about "barn find" small aircraft.  

On our little airfield alone, we have around 5 RAA class aircraft that have not moved in 1-5 years. Growing mold, tyres flat & god only knows, what might be making a nice home within. I bet, almost all small airfields will have  the same sort of static displays.

Boats often have a similar progression, from being used as often as possible, to ending a driveway obstacle.😈

 

[Moneybox]

5 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

More than one way to "skin a cat";

 

What of existing use??? Plenty of vegetable growers, around my way, that would not get approval to operate today (water catchment area) have prior use exemptions.

 

I don't think sealing a road/runway, on your own property, would usually require planning permission. Road/runway doemstic traffic whats the diff????

 

As I said as long as it's not an official LA it does not have to conform to any planning requirements😈

True though -

I regularly hear stories about "barn find" small aircraft.  

On our little airfield alone, we have around 5 RAA class aircraft that have not moved in 1-5 years. Growing mold, tyres flat & god only knows, what might be making a nice home within. I bet, almost all small airfields will have  the same sort of static displays.

Boats often have a similar progression, from being used as often as possible, to ending a driveway obstacle.😈

 

Mine is a good example. Bought new (demo model) but the buyer only did 8hrs training. He left it at the flight school and got paid 350hrs hire as a trainer. When I got to it it had been in the hanger for 12 years and had a total 711 hrs since new. What a waste of a beautiful little aircraft that cost $125,000 in 2004.

[djpacro]

Land and Land Ownership | Intergovernmental Committee on Surveying and Mapping

"Apart from these and other similar statutory exceptions, the surface owner does own the airspace above their land in the sense that, subject to building regulations, they are fully entitled to extend their occupation of the air, for example, by building high-rise developments. However, judgements in recent cases are interpreted to mean that an owner's rights extend only as far as is necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of their land."

[Thruster88]

7 hours ago, RegularPerson said:

Yeah, I was hoping it would be a branded plane like a Cessna which have strict manufacturers maintenance schedules. Kit planes, depending on the discipline and thoroughness of the owner, could be hit or miss whether components get inspected and changed out. So it's not the design of the plane but the maintenance which could be a worry. 

 

By the way ... winds right now are 80-100kmh ... Hope he's not planning on taking off ... LOL

The pilot in question Ben, is a friend of mine. I will not say much, there is always two sides to every story. Hopefully you and Ben will have an amicable meeting to resolve the issue. As an experienced pilot, as is Ben, I can say you are not at risk. 

 

The wind in cowra today was around 20km/h with a peak gust of 35km/h. 

[skippydiesel]

1 hour ago, djpacro said:

Land and Land Ownership | Intergovernmental Committee on Surveying and Mapping

"Apart from these and other similar statutory exceptions, the surface owner does own the airspace above their land in the sense that, subject to building regulations, they are fully entitled to extend their occupation of the air, for example, by building high-rise developments. However, judgements in recent cases are interpreted to mean that an owner's rights extend only as far as is necessary for the ordinary use and enjoyment of their land."

Wow! One very twisted piece of logic. 

 

In my view you no more own or control the air above your property than the ground below, sea, sea bed, rivers & lakes. It is all the preserve of the Crown/State (in Au).

The State may lease or otherwise give permission for a high rise, basement or mine with limits/conditions.

The State may also take away/resume with or without compensation.

The private Joe/Jane actually only occupies/has use of,  by the grace of the State, never truly owns - this may be diffrent for Native Title.😈

Edited 3 hours ago by skippydiesel

[Red]

Thruster88, Would have been nice if he had approached his neighbour to inform him of his intention to land over their house 

 

Following the law and being a good neighbor are often not the same thing.

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Red

[spacesailor]

I doubt the landing phrase is the problem,  but take-off !  , Full power ,with the ever EFATO .

Looms high .

spacesailor

[RegularPerson]

52 minutes ago, Thruster88 said:

The pilot in question Ben, is a friend of mine. I will not say much, there is always two sides to every story. Hopefully you and Ben will have an amicable meeting to resolve the issue. As an experienced pilot, as is Ben, I can say you are not at risk. 

 

The wind in cowra today was around 20km/h with a peak gust of 35km/h. 

I'll be meeting him tomorrow, so looking forward to it. I'm hopeful we can find a way to resolve it so both of us come out happy and most of all safe for all of us. 

 

I'm glad you can speak for him for being a very good pilot which gives me confidence that my family will be okay. 

 

Will let you know how it goes 👍

 

Btw, meteorological wind speeds are not representative due to the funneling effect up here. Down in the town it's calm, but up here it's wild.

Edited 2 hours ago by RegularPerson

[Moneybox]

4 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

I doubt the landing phrase is the problem,  but take-off !  , Full power ,with the ever EFATO .

Looms high .

spacesailor

EFATO?  I only have 30 pages of acronyms so I'm a little handicapped... 🤪

[Thruster88]

Just now, Moneybox said:

EFATO?  I only have 30 pages of acronyms so I'm a little handicapped... 🤪

Engine Failure After Take off. This is were the experienced pilot will have and keep enough air speed to keep control of the aircraft. 

[BrendAn]

4 hours ago, RegularPerson said:

 

 

Thanks for the valuable advice and insight. 

 

We bought the land in 2015 (lease the land for 6 years) and finished building in 2021 when we moved in. They moved in beginning 2024 from memory or slightly earlier.

 

I get along with all surrounding neighbours and know them all.

 

You're right, it's a moral ethical issue rather than a legal one. I hope if he does give up the hobby rather than keep flying low to my children's bedrooms, but who knows. Perhaps he might have a change of heart and find compassion and think about the children to create a new landing strip 😁

 

Again, thanks for the supportive words and it's appreciated 👍 

Do you think about the children when you take them anywhere in the car. I would think the chance of injury /  death might be many thousands times greater than a wayward aircraft.

[facthunter]

Engine failure at take off.

     I think 150 Feet is a bit low to fly over someone's house. If he's so $#!t hot, he could turn between your house and the touchdown point.  Can't They  just realign  the runway a bit. OR displace the threshold? I would NOT do it to anyone. It IS a very Light weight plane with about 80 Knots Max speed.  Nev

[RegularPerson]

19 minutes ago, facthunter said:

Engine failure at take off.

     I think 150 Feet is a bit low to fly over someone's house. If he's so $#!t hot, he could turn between your house and the touchdown point.  Can't They  just realign  the runway a bit. OR displace the threshold? I would NOT do it to anyone. It IS a very Light weight plane with about 80 Knots Max speed.  Nev

 

Hi fact,

 

As I said before, the entry is very narrow. On one side is power lines plus trees. The other all trees. I don't want him doing manoeuvres he's not confident in performing because it will increase the chances of a problem. IMHO, if they can get the last line of power lines to their home buried underground, there is the high likelyhood he can land and depart in the opposite direction. The other side is open paddocks and homes are quit far away. It's a bonus should anything happen during take off, there are plenty of paddocks to choose for landing. On my property, you'll be heading straight into the creek with large trees lining both sides, that is if you actually clear the house.

[spacesailor]

It was drummed into us when training!.

Engine Failure After Take-off. 

If too slow getting the nose down, ' you stall ' .

Only four pages ( A4 ) of abrieviations. 

spacesailor

[RegularPerson]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

Do you think about the children when you take them anywhere in the car. I would think the chance of injury /  death might be many thousands times greater than a wayward aircraft.

I think about their safety first and foremost especially in the car. Always seatbelted and Always at the back.