Jabiru 230 and Short Field ?

[Adrian Lewer]

Has anyone got any Experience in landing and takeoff with the J230 ? i must Measure the strip i wish to fly off but have to find an aircraft suitable to fly off the strip i want.

 

how did you find the pitch and roll controll at 55kts IAS or even lower ? what was your estimate of landing and takeoff roll length ?

 

also the same from people with the J160-c ? but have a feeling the J-230 will be the better aircraft for this...

 

 

[blueline]

Hi Ferret,

 

J230d flys fine at 55knots (certainly no problems with control effectivness in all normal conditions). As you would expect the hold off is brief when compared to a normal approach speed of 65.

 

The J160c will be very unhappy at these speeds - when Jabiru say 63knots minimum speed, they mean it! At 55 knots the J160c is flying at less than 1.3 x stall speed, and feels like it (and is a long way into the back of the drag curve if you know what I mean). Control is not the issue - running out of lift is.

 

Either aircraft has no issue with operating from a 560 metre strip (even for touch and goes with low time pilots). I have not checked the flight manual but I would think that you would need at least 300 metres to operate a J230 from - preferably though try to get 500 metres, then you can operate most aircraft without too much trouble.

 

I have just got a J170 online now so would be interested to see how much runway it needs???

 

Regards,

 

Blueline

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

i was at ballarat today sitting exames ? i did see the J170. you are not by any chance the pilot/owner who flew her back ?

 

 

[Guest J430]

Think you need to measure the strip and look at the approach & departure angles.

 

I have quite a few hundred hours in the J430 (230 with 4 seats) and I have some set minimums for certain things.

 

Not sure posting them for the general consumption is a good idea as what works for some may be lethal for others.

 

J

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

totaly agree with you, especialy for someone like myself who would only be low hours. i will be measuring the strip when i get a chance (and a metre wheel)

 

 

[Guest brentc]

I would be a bit careful with some of the figures quoted! They seem a little short for my liking!

 

Comparisons could perhaps be made between the J170 and J230 as they have the same (longer wing). The J160 is not a short field performer and whilst it might be on some days there would be little or no margin on others. J170 on the other hand is a different story and will reliably get in and out on more days than the J160.

 

 

[Captain]

Grass short strip

 

Further to the Ferret's post, I am looking at building a new short grass strip on the side of a hill up near my house, but it is a bit tight up there.

 

 

 

Does anyone have any firm practical experience on the realistic minimum length of grass that is needed for a J230 on both take-off and landing?

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

cool a new practice strip for me :). migh have to drop in for a cuppa one day captain...

 

 

[quentas]

I`ve flown around 120hours in my J230D since December 07 and have found the J230 is not a short field aircraft even when flown at the min speeds. (two reasons would be brakes and the fact the aircraft is quite slippery) The 230 also gets trickey on rough fields because the throttle tends to advance whilst you are trying to hold the nose off and brake at the same time (three hands would be nice) If you want to land and take off out of strips shorter than 400m then an aircraft such as a foxbat etc is far more suitable. Try marking your new strip length on an existing long one and do 20 landings on it remembering it only takes 1 overun to `crash`. good luck.

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

actualy not a bad idea. i might measure the strip i want to land on and replicate it on the strip at ballarat, than try some landings.

 

good thinking "99"

 

 

[Guest J430]

The 230 also gets trickey on rough fields because the throttle tends to advance whilst you are trying to hold the nose off and brake at the same time (three hands would be nice)

Few comments here.......

 

1. For all you who bagged the previous throttle arrangement thumb_down My throttle stays exactly where it is put 100% of the time!

 

2. Holding the nose off while braking is almost a waste of time once the speed starts coming off from braking you have little chance of the elevator holding the nose off the ground and the brakes not pulling the nose down. Gently lower the nose and brake to reduce speed, or hold the nose up and use more runway. Can't really do both anyway.

 

Good idea about measure a length, just also do some maths and look at equivelant distances to clear obstacles also.

 

Jabs are NOT 400m strip machines.

 

J:thumb_up:

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

buggar i was hoping for 200 meters ? has been done in an LSA before by an un named pilot friend of mine at the airstrip i want to fly from but he is an experienced pilot. i have to measure the strip as i am shocking at predicting lengths.

 

 

[Captain]

Jabs are NOT 400m strip machines.J

I think I recall hearing of someone operating a J230 off a 250 M farm strip, but it is one way on the side of a hill .............. and he doesn't get too many people dropping in.

 

 

 

I have been out with a dumpy today and it looks like I can cadge about 550 M with the last bit of one end up hill, so that looks like it might be workable if maybe restricted to one way ops for landing.

 

 

 

And a supplementary question ............ does anyone know whether you need a DA to build & operate a strip if it is actually part of an existing paddock?

 

 

 

As an additional matter of interest, this would be inside existing military Restricted Airspace and I spoke with CASA last week, who advised that if the military agree for a neighbour to operate within that space, then it will be OK, so will start discussions with the Army this week to hopefully progress that.

 

 

 

[Guest brentc]

550m sounds good Captain. I went into Tiger Moth world today off about 500 metres at Torquay (in the J400) and got in and out no dramas, so with your big wing you should be fine. Have been flying quite a bit this weekend and takeoff would definitely not be an issue. Landing however you'd be aiming for no more than 65 knots over the fence which would minimise your floating. Being grass you would stop pretty quickly compared to the bitumen that we were operating on. I was finding that my 'student' in the 230 was floating a bit much at 70 knots over the fence and needed around 600 metres to stop on bitumen.

 

 

[Captain]

I agree with you about the speeds Brent and have been experimenting with them in mine recently.

 

 

 

If it squeaks up between 65 & 70 knots at the flair it makes a disproportionate difference to the float and then getting it pulled up.

 

 

 

I like 65 over the fence and 60 in the start of the flair where it seems to do nothing wrong and settles positively and nicely.

 

 

 

My existing dirt farm strip has a 2 degree downslope and I reckon that I am getting off in about 200 m or so (with 600 to go) but it's a bit hard to look sideways when you are concentrating on the lift-off, so I'll check it more accurately next time.

 

 

 

How have you been keeping? We should maybe meet up for a coffee in Wangaratta or Mangalore some time.

 

 

 

[Yenn]

We have a J230 here and there is no way you could call it short field compatible. The glide is very flat even with flap and watching it land I estimate 400m on a strip which has about a 5% upslope. Take off is also interesting as it does not climb any sense until it hits above 80kts. I have only flown in it as a passenger and the approach looks terribly flat, but with plenty of strip ahead the T.O wasn't anywhere near so interesting. Who knows I may one day get to try it at low speed up high to see what it feels like. Normal flying is as if it is on rails, reminded me of a C182.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

All I can say is that there are Jabiru pilots, and there are Jabiru pilots ;)

 

The J230 rotates at less than 60 knots so I'm not sure what your pilot's up to if they can't climb at 80, perhaps they are not using flap for the takeoff?

 

I can get my J400 off the ground 1 up in about 150-200 metres or thereabouts, but not reliably.

 

Sounds good Captain - I don't yet have a leave pass for this weekend, but I'm definitely up for that. Perhaps Shep?

 

 

[Guest J430]

OK I was not keen on getting numbers up here that folk might rely on, but I agree with Brent, there are jab pilots and there are others!

 

The J430/230 will get off in 150m reliably with one body and lots of fuel, make that 2 bodies and plenty of fuel and its 200 or so.

 

Getting out is less of a problem, getting in is a bigger deal and thats where experience counts. I can do a lot better now than 3 or 4 years ago.

 

I also have much better brakes than I had back then and still better than the current factory spec units!

 

Again it all depends on the approach / departure paths

 

J:thumb_up:

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

done some stalls the other day in the J160-C and the problem is this ..... it does not stall you just start loosing height at a slowish decent and thats it...35 Kts and the elevator and rudder still have authority..... but not a recomended thing for 3Ft AGL

 

 

[Guest J430]

And the bigger wing is worse.... or better....you know what I mean!:thumb_up:

 

J

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

I'm not a Jab pilot so I'm not going there with numbers, and as you all know I'm banned from making comments about Jabs

 

We are talking with some newish pilots here though, so it's worth being clear that there are a few issues worth considering.

 

1. We need to be careful to distinguish between optimal performance and reliable, repeatable performance. Others have made this point but it's worth repeating. One thing low hours pilots sometimes struggle with is achieving reliable repeatable performance, and they are not alone in that;
    
    
   
2. Performance will vary depending on slope, wind, length of grass, smoothness or otherwise of surface, whether the grass is wet...etc.
    
    
   
3. Obstacles can have a substantial impact on distance required. For instance the POH extract I posted for Ferret in another thread suggests that a 50 foot obstacle can over double the take off distance required. Landing distances are similarly affected. A normal eucalypt can be well over 50 feet. A fence right on the threshold will significantly impact landing distance;
    
    
   
4. Remember Density Altitude. Yes you'll get off in x metres at sea level in winter. What about at 1500 feet elevation in the heat of summer? Ditto for landing.
    
    
   
5. Stop distance: If you open the throttle and then find a problem do you have enough strip to stop before you go off the end? What about an EFATO?
    
    
   
6. One way strips: To paraphrase Dirty Harry "Are you feeling lucky punk?" A go around is the ultimate safety valve for a botched approach or landing. If you can't go around then you better be right - every time. As a kid I used to ride along with the local ag pilot. Every landing was into strips where the top of the strip was 100 or more feet above the bottom. You had to get your landing right, you could only see hillside in front of you in the landing and once the throttle was opened on takeoff you could not abort without running into a gully;
    
    
   
7. Prevailing wind: does the strip point into the prevailing wind or is it a crosswind strip? If it is a xwind strip then performance will be affected and control difficulty increases.
    
    
   

 

 

I'm sure there are more issues than that. The point being that minimum strip length is not the relevant question. Safe strip length is the relevant question. The two are very different.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

Talking about one way strips this is a bit of fun. It's not a Jab!

 

This isn't a very steep strip but it gives you some idea of the kind of strip they work out of. In addition watch the first take-off and note the puff of super as the pilot dumps some of the load about 2/3 of the way down the strip. Must have felt a little sluggish!

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

 

[jcamp]

done some stalls the other day in the J160-C and the problem is this ..... it does not stall you just start loosing height at a slowish decent and thats it...35 Kts and the elevator and rudder still have authority..... but not a recomended thing for 3Ft AGL

Check you are OK on spins and go to 4,000 AGL then try the goround configuration - full flap full power.

 

 

[Adrian Lewer]

can you elaborate a bit ?

 

 

[jcamp]

Stall behaviour is affected considerably by power and a full power/flap stall is quite different from a power off one.

 

A couple of months after I got the J160, I was flying on a day when the air was calm enough to do a meanful check of the book figures for stall/IAS. All was OK even allowing for some bird sxxt on the left wing until fullpower/flap. The angle was pretty extreme (and I don't really see how you could get into it unintentionally) but the break was sharp and I turned through 90 before recovery.

 

Figured I had better brush up on spins before repeating the exercise so did a session in an Aerobat (flying from the LHS for control similarity).