Nitrogen engine.

[planedriver]

If this is developed further, one can only wonder whether it could in the future have an application in RAA. 

At this stage it's only a single cylinder, but is simple in concept with so few parts.

As they say, simplicity is generally the essense of reliability.

Time will tell!

https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=590587123957530&set=a.444625191887058

[onetrack]

It's just another hydrogen engine dream. There is no way that any major supply of hydrogen, available in all regions, at low cost, will ever become available. At best, it might become available in densely populated areas for about $10 a litre.

 

Meantimes, the Chinese EV onslaught will rule, with new and more efficient batteries every second month.

[Moneybox]

I'd like to see water used.

 

https://youtu.be/cTHUuANWF5M?si=-aExeXaa4GugbRJi

[skippydiesel]

How is the hydrogen fuel stored/transported??😈

[Moneybox]

12 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

How is the hydrogen fuel stored/transported??😈

That YouTube link explains a bit.

[facthunter]

 It's made by the "Mandrake" Process. Hydrogen burned in an ICE motor is  still inefficient and can produce Nitrous oxides, Toyota are Lost in their "Dead end" Philosophy of ICE forever.

[turboplanner]

21 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

How is the hydrogen fuel stored/transported??😈

Have a look around. The hydrogen infrastructure is being rolled out around Australia, several models of cars and trucks. I haven't done any work on it lately but I think they've settled on removable fuel modules, about for or five on a car which you pull out, drop in the return slots and take new ones insert them and you're off in about the same time as a fuel fill.

[facthunter]

Hydrogen Leaks and causes Hardening of metals and can't effectively be liquified. Big tanks for not a lot of energy.  High pressures and therefore risky. Nev 

[onetrack]

Nowhere has anyone found a cheap source of hydrogen to replace oil that is simply pumped out of the ground and simply hydrotreated.

 

Breaking down water to make hydrogen uses so much energy, it's not even remotely competitive with oil - even if solar energy is utilised, the hydrogen then still has major storage, transport and dispensing problems.

 

Toyota is only working on hydrogen, because they want to ensure multiple sources of energy for powering vehicles, so they never become totally reliant on one source of energy.

 

They have never forgotten their hard-earned lessons of WW2, they are an island nation with no reserves of any minerals or energy sources, and they constantly look for energy independence.

[Moneybox]

Hydrogen fuel cells for aircraft.

 

 

[facthunter]

You can go Hydrogen straight to electric which is as efficient as a transformer is  95+%.  Burning stuff is unlikely to get much above 30% efficiency and at high temps will produce Nitrous Oxides.Nev

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, facthunter said:

Hydrogen Leaks and causes Hardening of metals and can't effectively be liquified. Big tanks for not a lot of energy.  High pressures and therefore risky. Nev 

The cells I saw fitted across the car under the boot; sealing was taken out of operator's control. When the module was locked in there was fuel flow to the car. Some smart thinking solved that problem. Next question would be range.

[facthunter]

That doesn't address ANY of the Problems I listed.  Nev

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, facthunter said:

That doesn't address ANY of the Problems I listed.  Nev

Good, they won't have to worry then, they're just going about their business in the 21st Century. Production vehicles are on the road, so just a matter of watching the market share now.

 

 

[facthunter]

 And wonder how they will insure them? Have they been thoroughly RISK assessed? Nev

[onetrack]

The hydrogen fuel cell is a pipe dream economically, and they will continue to be a pipe dream for decades, or even centuries to come. It's simply unviable, there's no other way to describe the system.

 

Some on here may recall Perths hydrogen fuel cell bus experiment, which ran from 2004 to 2007. Three Mercedes-Benz buses fitted with Canadian Ballard fuel cells were purchased with Federal Govt backing of more than $3M.

The W.A. Govt also provided a lot of money and infrastructure to run the buses. Hydrogen was produced from the Kwinana BP refinery and trucked to the Transperth bus depot in Malaga.

This was not a widespread hydrogen distribution system, there was only one point of hydrogen dispensing, which limited the buses movements.

 

The program was called the STEP program (Sustainable Transport Energy for Perth) and the fuel cell buses were provided to multiple countries to see how workable the design and system was. Perth was the only Australian location to use them.

The fuel cell bus global trial was a Mercedes-Benz initiative, designed to see if they could produce the buses as a long-term viable product, globally.

 

The hydrogen fuel cell buses were generally regarded as acceptable, with satisfactory reliability - but overall, operational costs were high, and routes were limited due to lack of an extensive hydrogen distribution system.

The fuel cells were found to need expensive reconditioning every three years, and three year testing of hydrogen tanks was another cost burden. The trial ended with no substantial orders for the fuel cell buses.

 

Full scale production of the fuel cell buses was abandoned when Mercedes-Benz deemed proceeding with the fuel cell bus design was uneconomic. Transperth made the decision to simply convert diesel buses to run on CNG, and about two-thirds of Perth's bus fleet has been CNG-powered buses. The CNG buses have proven reliable, and lower-cost to operate than either diesel or fuel cell buses - although there were early teething problems with bus fires using CNG, because of an initially bad CNG conversion design.

 

Today, electric buses are deemed to be the future of mass transportation. Perth's Public Transport Authority has been operating Volvo electric buses for 2 years now, with great success (18 have been operational since last year), and has recently placed orders for another approximately 130 Volvo BZL electric buses. 

 

The Kwinana refinery (once, Australia's biggest refinery) has since been closed down, so one cheap source of hydrogen locally has been removed. No-one has developed a sustainable hydrogen-production operation in Australia yet, even though we've been promised that "cheap" hydrogen production for over 20 years. No cheap hydrogen, and no distribution system for hydrogen, so where's the benefits of hydrogen engines or fuel cells?

 

https://www.bpswa.org/hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses.html

 

https://www.busnews.com.au/inside-the-mysterious-first-australian-hydrogen-bus-trial

 

https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/news/media-statements/first-year-of-electric-bus-travel-in-perth-a-success

 

https://www.transdev.com.au/press-release/new-electric-buses-for-perth-cbd-routes/

 

https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/c-king/media-release/wheels-turning-manufacture-new-electric-buses-wa

 

[spacesailor]

No one noticed that the two pinion gears , on thar crankshaft both turn clockwise yet the crown wheel requires one clockwise  and one anticlockwise. 

Did they use " magic ' ! .

spacesailor

Edited Thursday at 04:14 AM by spacesailor

[facthunter]

You are correct.   Nev

[Arron25]

This starts to resolve the transport quandary....

Toyota reveals game-changing hydrogen tank swap technology

WWW.DRIVE.COM.AU

---

Toyota has revealed portable hydrogen cartridges capable of powering everything from cooktops to cars.

 

[turboplanner]

2 hours ago, onetrack said:

The hydrogen fuel cell is a pipe dream economically, and they will continue to be a pipe dream for decades, or even centuries to come. It's simply unviable, there's no other way to describe the system.

 

Some on here may recall Perths hydrogen fuel cell bus experiment, which ran from 2004 to 2007. Three Mercedes-Benz buses fitted with Canadian Ballard fuel cells were purchased with Federal Govt backing of more than $3M.

The W.A. Govt also provided a lot of money and infrastructure to run the buses. Hydrogen was produced from the Kwinana BP refinery and trucked to the Transperth bus depot in Malaga.

This was not a widespread hydrogen distribution system, there was only one point of hydrogen dispensing, which limited the buses movements.

 

The program was called the STEP program (Sustainable Transport Energy for Perth) and the fuel cell buses were provided to multiple countries to see how workable the design and system was. Perth was the only Australian location to use them.

The fuel cell bus global trial was a Mercedes-Benz initiative, designed to see if they could produce the buses as a long-term viable product, globally.

 

The hydrogen fuel cell buses were generally regarded as acceptable, with satisfactory reliability - but overall, operational costs were high, and routes were limited due to lack of an extensive hydrogen distribution system.

The fuel cells were found to need expensive reconditioning every three years, and three year testing of hydrogen tanks was another cost burden. The trial ended with no substantial orders for the fuel cell buses.

 

Full scale production of the fuel cell buses was abandoned when Mercedes-Benz deemed proceeding with the fuel cell bus design was uneconomic. Transperth made the decision to simply convert diesel buses to run on CNG, and about two-thirds of Perth's bus fleet has been CNG-powered buses. The CNG buses have proven reliable, and lower-cost to operate than either diesel or fuel cell buses - although there were early teething problems with bus fires using CNG, because of an initially bad CNG conversion design.

 

Today, electric buses are deemed to be the future of mass transportation. Perth's Public Transport Authority has been operating Volvo electric buses for 2 years now, with great success (18 have been operational since last year), and has recently placed orders for another approximately 130 Volvo BZL electric buses. 

 

The Kwinana refinery (once, Australia's biggest refinery) has since been closed down, so one cheap source of hydrogen locally has been removed. No-one has developed a sustainable hydrogen-production operation in Australia yet, even though we've been promised that "cheap" hydrogen production for over 20 years. No cheap hydrogen, and no distribution system for hydrogen, so where's the benefits of hydrogen engines or fuel cells?

 

https://www.bpswa.org/hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses.html

 

https://www.busnews.com.au/inside-the-mysterious-first-australian-hydrogen-bus-trial

 

https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/news/media-statements/first-year-of-electric-bus-travel-in-perth-a-success

 

https://www.transdev.com.au/press-release/new-electric-buses-for-perth-cbd-routes/

 

https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/c-king/media-release/wheels-turning-manufacture-new-electric-buses-wa

 

The cars and trucks that have gone into production are Hydrogen gas into ICE engines, using capsules to hold the gas. They are not fuel cell.

 

However in terms of fuel cell vehicles, I was involved in the Bus Industry in 2005/6, evaluating future product so looking closely at the Perth PTA trial with Mercedes Benz fuel cell buses. To give Mercedes Benz credit due they spent a lot of money setting up the buses and at the end of the trial the passengers liked the lower floors and the quiet operation, but at that time the Prime Cost of the chassis was three times the cost of a diesel.

 

I ruled it out on Prime Cost, without the in-service Fuel Cell vs Diesel Maintenance component, and happen to have 2004 figures here to show the impact, using costing done for another MTT company.

 

Bus Chassis: Mercedes Benz 0405NH/0500             $198,934.00

Body:                                                                           $225,500.00

Total:                                                                           $424,434.00

 

Bus Chassis: Mercedes Benz Fuel Cell                     $596,802.00

Body:                                                                           $225,500.00

Total:                                                                           $822,306.00   

 

Fuel Cell Premium                                                      $397,872.00

Premium x 600 normal Tender Lot                           $238,723,200.00

 

Even at State Government level purchasing it was clear that $238.7 million up front premium was going to be too big to swallow.

 

About the same time Honda built a fuel cell Civic  and sent them to the US  where they were offered to customers on a 12 months lease. One of them came to Australia for evaluation, but it all died away. There are still companies trialling them and maybe one day they'll get the magic balance where you put water in the tank, the fuel cell breaks out the H from the 02, and the engine supplies the electricity needed to power the fuel cell.

[spacesailor]

How far would would that litte canister of H , take a two ton 6 cylinder car .

spacesailor

 

PS. :  what would be the IC modifications to use H. An IC motor will run on " Start y B " but no one would risk their motor

Edited Thursday at 07:21 AM by spacesailor
PS added

[facthunter]

SYB is just ETHER,  Got an octane rating of about 10..It use needs careful application. I would NEVER use it on an aero engine in any circumstances. Nev

[Arron25]

10 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

How far would would that litte canister of H , take a two ton 6 cylinder car .

I believe these would be a 'proof of concept' product at present

[spacesailor]

A squirter of H .

Will that move a stubborn engine , that's what SYB does marvellously 

I converted an IC car to ethanol,  by putting a thick " head-gasket " in to lower the ComRat .

Worked OK. But heavy fuel use .

spacesailor

[facthunter]

The topic Title is "Nitrogen engine".  History is full of Wonder Engines that never got past first base. Look at ALL the various Valving systems tried over the Years. The often ridiculed Poppet Valve reigns supreme and anyone doing valve grinds would be out of business fast. as good as it has been developed It's days are Mostly Over, Solar Energy is SO CHEAP NOW and getting CHEAPER and the SUN wouldn't be going out for a long time. IT gives US people Independence from Monopolies and Fossil fuels which are finite and Polluting' Whole Cities could go OFF Grid and be independent.  A lot of {People higher up don't like that Idea. Guess why. They'd charge us for Oxygen IF they knew How.  Nev