Nitrogen engine.

[facthunter]

 With ethanol , space you should have raised the Compression Ratio. Are you sure you weren't using Kerosene. Nev

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, onetrack said:

The hydrogen fuel cell is a pipe dream economically, and they will continue to be a pipe dream for decades, or even centuries to come. It's simply unviable, there's no other way to describe the system.

 

Some on here may recall Perths hydrogen fuel cell bus experiment, which ran from 2004 to 2007. Three Mercedes-Benz buses fitted with Canadian Ballard fuel cells were purchased with Federal Govt backing of more than $3M.

The W.A. Govt also provided a lot of money and infrastructure to run the buses. Hydrogen was produced from the Kwinana BP refinery and trucked to the Transperth bus depot in Malaga.

This was not a widespread hydrogen distribution system, there was only one point of hydrogen dispensing, which limited the buses movements.

 

The program was called the STEP program (Sustainable Transport Energy for Perth) and the fuel cell buses were provided to multiple countries to see how workable the design and system was. Perth was the only Australian location to use them.

The fuel cell bus global trial was a Mercedes-Benz initiative, designed to see if they could produce the buses as a long-term viable product, globally.

 

The hydrogen fuel cell buses were generally regarded as acceptable, with satisfactory reliability - but overall, operational costs were high, and routes were limited due to lack of an extensive hydrogen distribution system.

The fuel cells were found to need expensive reconditioning every three years, and three year testing of hydrogen tanks was another cost burden. The trial ended with no substantial orders for the fuel cell buses.

 

Full scale production of the fuel cell buses was abandoned when Mercedes-Benz deemed proceeding with the fuel cell bus design was uneconomic. Transperth made the decision to simply convert diesel buses to run on CNG, and about two-thirds of Perth's bus fleet has been CNG-powered buses. The CNG buses have proven reliable, and lower-cost to operate than either diesel or fuel cell buses - although there were early teething problems with bus fires using CNG, because of an initially bad CNG conversion design.

 

Today, electric buses are deemed to be the future of mass transportation. Perth's Public Transport Authority has been operating Volvo electric buses for 2 years now, with great success (18 have been operational since last year), and has recently placed orders for another approximately 130 Volvo BZL electric buses. 

 

The Kwinana refinery (once, Australia's biggest refinery) has since been closed down, so one cheap source of hydrogen locally has been removed. No-one has developed a sustainable hydrogen-production operation in Australia yet, even though we've been promised that "cheap" hydrogen production for over 20 years. No cheap hydrogen, and no distribution system for hydrogen, so where's the benefits of hydrogen engines or fuel cells?

 

https://www.bpswa.org/hydrogen-fuel-cell-buses.html

 

https://www.busnews.com.au/inside-the-mysterious-first-australian-hydrogen-bus-trial

 

https://www.pta.wa.gov.au/news/media-statements/first-year-of-electric-bus-travel-in-perth-a-success

 

https://www.transdev.com.au/press-release/new-electric-buses-for-perth-cbd-routes/

 

https://minister.infrastructure.gov.au/c-king/media-release/wheels-turning-manufacture-new-electric-buses-wa

 

murray goulburn had some milk tankers on trial here a few years back. cng powered. didn't seem very successful. they switched to diesel to go up hills then back to cng when the load eased.

[turboplanner]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

murray goulburn had some milk tankers on trial here a few years back. cng powered. didn't seem very successful. they switched to diesel to go up hills then back to cng when the load eased.

CNG was compressed methane, dropped power by about 10%; that was enough for it to get the thumbs down from most fleets. 

[onetrack]

The only manufacturer in the world going down the IC Hydrogen path with diesels is JCB in the U.K. Anthony (Lord) Bamford is pushing the IC Hydrogen engine with a £100M investment. He's even built JCB Hydrogen refuelling vehicles.

But nowhere is it mentioned where a constant, cheap source of hydrogen for the long-term, is coming from. I don't know where JCB is getting their hydrogen, but I'll wager it's a refinery by-product - and no cost of the hydrogen is mentioned.

 

https://www.jcb.com/en-au/campaigns/hydrogen/hydrogen-truck

 

Bamford claims it's a no-brainer to use hydrogen in current IC engines, because the development costs are low, and he doesn't have to add serious strength to his machines to carry the batteries needed for electric drive.

He says if went to electric motive power on a 20 tonne digger, the battery would add 8 tonnes in weight to the machine and he'd have to install a heavier undercarriage and frame.

 

But there are already pure electric motive power machines appearing in the construction industry, and I think Bamford has taken a major detour that is going to lead him into a cul-de-sac for the long-term.

 

The problem with hydrogen is, although it's very energy intensive, carrying 33.33 kWh per kg - as against about 12 kWh per kg for petrol and diesel - it's hydrogen TRANSPORTATION, that is the giant bugbear.

Hydrogen rates poorly for volumetric efficiency in transportation, even when pressurised to 700 kPa. It can be pressurised to much greater levels - but at what cost and safety level?

So hydrogen has to be LIQUIFIED to be transported efficiently. But when it's liquified, it takes around 36% of its available energy to liquify it.

 

Current research is all about trying to reduce the cost of hydrogen liquifaction - but no-one has come up with a cheap liquifaction method yet - and no-one has produced cheap and substantial supplies of hydrogen - even though we've been promised cheap, GREEN hydrogen for a couple of decades now.

 

https://www.idealhy.eu/index.php?page=lh2_outline

 

Note that the hydrogen liquifaction project in the last link above, was completed in 2013 and nothing further has come from all their research. In the meantime, battery design has improved in leaps and bounds, tripling and quadrupling energy storage abilities in just a few short years, and with more substantial advances in the near future.

 

You'll be flying an electric aircraft long before you'll be flying a hydrogen fuel cell one - and you'll be able to recharge in a myriad of places with ease.

 

Edited Thursday at 08:17 AM by onetrack

[spacesailor]

I'm not find that number of charging stations wherever I need them .

Local supermarket has one ! .

Not so good as I expected. 

Then I did the Dubbo to Parramatta on a  electric car charge map .

A complete failure . Just couldn't find those that where they were supposed to be ! .

Neighbour has a Tesla 3 , & even he had trouble going to Brisbane for a holiday .

spacesailor

[onetrack]

You'd have a lot more trouble trying to finding a refuelling point, with a hydrogen car, Spacey!  😄

 

[facthunter]

You are kidding Us, aren't you? You don't have an EV.. Nev

[planedriver]

I posted this as a VERY early development and thought it would be interesting to get various peoples reaction to it.

I've always been a real lover of simplicty being the essence of reliability theory.

However, there is is normally more to things than what initially meets the eye,

Loving all your comments and reactions.

Rgds Planey,

 

 

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, planedriver said:

I posted this as a VERY early development and thought it would be interesting to get various peoples reaction to it.

I've always been a real lover of simplicty being the essence of reliability theory.

However, there is is normally more to things than what initially meets the eye,

Loving all your comments and reactions.

Rgds Planey,

 

 

 

It's all very well to look towards these clean energy sources but what is the cost in terms of pollution behind the scenes. We are mining and processing specialist minerals and metals, plastics etc but only measuring the output at the exhaust pipe. For those who remember the fossil fuel crisis of the early 70's, the whole thing is politically motivated.

 

Australia has sufficient fossil fuel to take us into the next millennium. I can remember my primary school headmaster showing us a bottle of distillate direct from the ground at Roma. That fuel could have powered our vehicles for a fraction of the cost we've faced over the last 60 years but they were never allowed to use it. WHY?

 

We have massive reserves of natural gas that could have been piped across the country fueling our vehicles, factories and power stations for half of the last century. Why are we roped into world prices and practises when the Australian economy could have been boosted by almost free fuel in the past and present.

 

It's just big world politics playing games and we never get to understand WHY.

[Arron25]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

WHY.

Because US and British / European oil companies said we can't .. along with serous manufacturing... and I can't even touch on the "every is better from oversees" attitude...

We even get a variant in the West... why buy local. when 'everything' is better from the coast.

(yeah I know .. bitter and twisted )

Edited Thursday at 02:54 PM by Arron25

[facthunter]

WE haven't taken recycling seriously as the Mining Fraternity wouldn't want it. Recycling is a big part of the solution. Nev

[spacesailor]

"Recycling " .

All of Europe s milk bottles were washed & reused.  

The. Bottle manufacturer r said they can make those bottles cheaper than washing ! .

Now can some-one, find a good economic use for " Crushed glass " .

It could be used instead of course sand . In '  Concrete/ Mortar/ Road bitumen  mix , etc. 

We will soon have a mountain of recycled glass .

spacesailor

 

 

 

[Moneybox]

13 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

"Recycling " .

All of Europe s milk bottles were washed & reused.  

The. Bottle manufacturer r said they can make those bottles cheaper than washing ! .

Now can some-one, find a good economic use for " Crushed glass " .

It could be used instead of course sand . In '  Concrete/ Mortar/ Road bitumen  mix , etc. 

We will soon have a mountain of recycled glass .

spacesailor

 

 

 

 

Our milk bottles were all washed and reused as well. We always returned the empties to be washed and returned full but that doesn't quite work with plastics. If you take a look at the old long neck beer bottles that are lying about the bush you'll see various shades of amber. The colour change depends on the percentage of other glass that was included in the recycling way back in the day.

[Methusala]

Today I noticed at our market, 2 of 4 recharge spots occupied by non EV's. My solution? Crush and return to owners as scrap 🤣😂

[BrendAn]

22 hours ago, onetrack said:

You'd have a lot more trouble trying to finding a refuelling point, with a hydrogen car, Spacey!  😄

 

unless you live in norway

[danny_galaga]

I agree with one-track. Hydrogen fuel cell is a pipe dream. Mercedes have/had been mucking around with it since at least  the early 90's. As a kid I was enamoured with the idea. but EV tech has slowly but surely surpassed fuel cell tech. You just can't get around the transport costs and inefficient manufacture of green hydrogen.

[onetrack]

Here's another "failure to proceed" in the Hydrogen production story. Following on from the cancellation of the $600M Green Hydrogen project in Whyalla (due to economics that failed to stack up), Trafigura (a huge global corporation) has now cancelled its $750M Green Hydrogen project in Port Pirie. The project failed to even get past the economic feasibility stage.

 

Yet, the Govt is still throwing vast amounts of our tax dollars at anyone who wants to pursue the Green Hydrogen Dream. I'd have to opine it's actually going to turn into a Hydrogen Nightmare, because nowhere in the world has anyone come up with the answer to the basic fact, that trying to produce cheap Hydrogen - in any form - is costly - and in the case of Green Hydrogen, it wastes something in the order of 35% to 36% of the input energy, to produce that Green Hydrogen.

 

I know that the Japanese Govt is throwing literally trillions at the problem, trying to find the Eureka answer to acquiring cheap and plentiful Hydrogen. The Japanese Govt has a working group which has drawn together all the major industrial players and manufacturers in Japan, to try and develop cheap Hydrogen. Despite all the money and admirable effort by the Japanese, the Hydrogen Dream is no closer now than it was 20 or 30 years ago - and it's all due to physics, and a lack of a simply-acquired source of Hydrogen.

 

https://www.miningday.com.au/trafigura-scraps-750m-green-hydrogen-plant-at-port-pirie/

[facthunter]

It only works when there's too Much of the Wind and Solar to use for anything else. An excess. Ammonia is another way to use Hydrogen.

  I would also Point out that the MINING INDUSTRY and the AUSTRALIAN are very unlikely to say anything positive about Hydrogen and the article is around the Politics of it. Nev

[onetrack]

I have to agree that the AUSTRALIAN News Media is largely anti-renewables, but I thought the article was quite balanced, and it reported facts and statements from a wide range of contributors, rather than pursing a slanted opinion line, that followed the media owners anti-green policies.

The simple fact remains that many Green Hydrogen projects have been cancelled in recent times, including "Twiggy" Forrests projects, and the article did report the comment of a consultant who stated (it) "may make more sense to use Australia’s huge renewable generation capacity for the power grid, rather than green hydrogen".

 

Edited yesterday at 12:48 AM by onetrack

[facthunter]

There's no need to bring in the election aspects of it in a scientific based article.   Economically it either stacks up or it doesn't.  I come for a Town based almost entirely on coal and steel production. Newcastle NSW  Most of Australia's alloy steels were produced In Commonwealth Steel Companies  Electric Furnaces.  AWESOME things to be NEAR when they are operating... Nev.. 

[turboplanner]

43 minutes ago, onetrack said:

I have to agree that the AUSTRALIAN News Media is largely anti-renewables, but I thought the article was quite balanced, and it reported facts and statements from a wide range of contributors, rather than pursing a slanted opinion line, that followed the media owners anti-green policies.

The simple fact remains that many Green Hydrogen projects have been cancelled in recent times, including "Twiggy" Forrests projects, and the article did report the comment of a consultant who stated (it) "may make more sense to use Australia’s huge renewable generation capacity for the power grid, rather than green hydrogen".

 

I'm not sure what this Green Hydrogen is; smoke and mirrors?

An engine running on CNG (Methane) requires very little change to run on hydrogen. In fact Cummins offer both in the one model engine, the 500 horsepower X15N so the modifications from one to the other will be either external accessories or slight. There's no national refuelling network, so it only suits Back to Base applications within the tank range.

[danny_galaga]

Green hydrogen just means you've used only renewable energy to electrolyse water. Splitting the molecule into one O and two Hs. The problem is, water is actually quite a perplexing molecule. For instance, most materials shrink as they get colder and expand when they get hotter. Water shrinks as it gets colder, to a certain point. Then as it gets even colder, it starts expanding again! It's also quite tenacious. And there really doesn't seem to be any way of not expending a LOT energy to split it. Really doesn't seem to be much reason to make green hydrogen, other than where you might need it for some industrial purpose (chemical for instance) without putting carbon in the air by getting it from fossil fuels (blue hydrogen).