Nitrogen engine.

[aro]

Creating hydrogen by electrolysis is just chemical storage of energy - the same thing a battery does.

The only difference is the source of the chemicals. A battery is self contained, but making hydrogen you can take water from the environment, and release the oxygen into the environment.

Releasing the energy you can take oxygen from the air, and release the resulting water into the environment.

 

Advantages of hydrogen:

1) You don't need to store all the chemicals for the reaction

2) You can easily divide it up into smaller quantities e.g. dispense by the litre

Advantage of batteries

1) They are self contained - you put electricity in, get electricity out. You don't need separate equipment to manage the reaction (electrolysis equipment, engine or fuel cell).

 

4 hours ago, danny_galaga said:

there really doesn't seem to be any way of not expending a LOT energy to split it

Right - you are storing energy, so you need to put the energy in before it can be used.

 

Hydrogen is attractive to fossil fuel companies because so much of it currently comes from gas, so promoting hydrogen is a way to extend the dependency on gas & oil. Batteries seem to be easier and cheaper for almost all uses.

[onetrack]

It's the energy required to electrolyse hydrogen-containing products, such as water, that kills the idea that cheap hydrogen can be mass-produced. Batteries recharged via renewable energy sources are still way in front of any hydrogen idea, and as battery technology continues to improve, hydrogen will continue to fall further behind.

The amount of surplus energy being produced by rooftop solar is now so huge, it has become a problem, that's why State Govts are investing in grid-level storage to soak it up.

[turboplanner]

1 hour ago, onetrack said:

It's the energy required to electrolyse hydrogen-containing products, such as water, that kills the idea that cheap hydrogen can be mass-produced. Batteries recharged via renewable energy sources are still way in front of any hydrogen idea, and as battery technology continues to improve, hydrogen will continue to fall further behind.

The amount of surplus energy being produced by rooftop solar is now so huge, it has become a problem, that's why State Govts are investing in grid-level storage to soak it up.

How does this grid-level storage work?

 

[aro]

21 minutes ago, turboplanner said:

How does this grid-level storage work?

 

Snowy Hydro have been doing it for decades, they pump water to the top when there is excess power and use it to generate power when required.

 

These days, big batteries are cheaper, simpler, faster to respond and generally more flexible.

[Moneybox]

46 minutes ago, aro said:

Snowy Hydro have been doing it for decades, they pump water to the top when there is excess power and use it to generate power when required.

 

These days, big batteries are cheaper, simpler, faster to respond and generally more flexible.

 

But there's still the mining and manufacture of the batteries that don't fit in with the definition of clean energy. They'll try to convince the public that we're using zero emission energy but that's a long way from the truth. A bit like they tried to convince us that we were running out of fossil fuels in the 70's. It's all propaganda and the majority seem to believe it.

[onetrack]

Quote

How does this grid-level storage work?

 

The electricity generated by the multitude of home solar panels that is not being used by homeowners, is sent into the grid-level, short-term storage batteries, for release later in the day/evening, when demand is ramping up, and maximum load is being placed on gas and coal fired power stations in W.A.

The batteries currently being installed are good for 4 hrs of storage, enough to get over peak demand periods.

 

The W.A. Govt is spending up to $2.8B on renewable energy sources and grid-level storage, to enable W.A. to retire its last coal and gas-fired power stations.

The State has generated an average of one-third of its power requirements from renewables on a fairly steady basis over the last couple of years, and up to 84% of W.A.'s power has come from renewable sources, at peak renewable generation times.

 

https://reneweconomy.com.au/four-new-giant-batteries-to-be-built-in-w-a-as-worlds-biggest-isolated-grid-navigates-transition-from-coal/

 

https://www.ess-news.com/2025/03/20/western-australia-awards-2-6-gwh-of-battery-storage-in-first-cis-tender/

 

https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/energy-policy-wa/energy-transformation-strategy

 

The W.A. Govt is now setting out to provide major subsidies for home batteries (from July 1, 2025 - and I for one, will certainly take up their offer) - and I strongly suspect that the State Govt is also preparing for the set up of local VPP's (Virtual Power Plants) whereby home solar and home batteries are harnessed to provide integrated energy over a local area. 

 

Western Power has already carried out testing of VPP's locally, but the arrangement needs more fine tuning, to ensure all of the energy generation orchestra plays the same tune.

It's entirely possible AI will be harnessed to ensure future co-ordination of power generation and use. I think the State Govt is on the right track, and it appears a lot of other W.A. voters think so, too.

 

https://onestepoffthegrid.com.au/groundbreaking-trial-shows-how-vpps-can-pay-for-home-batteries-slash-costs-on-the-grid/

 

 

[aro]

1 hour ago, Moneybox said:

But there's still the mining and manufacture of the batteries

Where do you reckon coal, oil and gas come from? At least with batteries the minerals are recyclable. Coal and oil you just burn them and have to dig up more.

[Moneybox]

2 hours ago, aro said:

Where do you reckon coal, oil and gas come from? At least with batteries the minerals are recyclable. Coal and oil you just burn them and have to dig up more.

 

Batteries are only part of the deception. There are solar panels, their manufacture and installation. Then there are the wind turbines, their towers, blades, massive tracts of vegetation cleared to install them and of course all the man hours and machinery involved. Most of the data you see is pointing at the free energy produced. Unfortunately it's not free and certainly in the short term much more expensive financially and environmentally than the modern fossil fuel power generation.

[danny_galaga]

19 hours ago, turboplanner said:

The tailpipe emission of a hydrogen ICE is zero, just like the EV.

So the comparison is going to need CO2 calcs from the original source to the engine supply point, in the same way that EV might have a Zero tailpipe output, but if it's charged from the grid, there's a CO2 penalty at the power station stack, and then there are different CO2 outputs to make the components and asseble them.

 

It's WAY more efficient to store electricity than create hydrogen. That's because the electricity just gets put straight into the grid when needed. Hydrogen needs to be compressed, transported etc. 

 

"Multiplying these individual efficiencies finds that just over a third of the original energy input into the cycle remains available for work by its end – a cycle efficiency of about 37%, meaning 63% of the original energy has been lost."

 

https://h2sciencecoalition.com/blog/can-electrolysers-of-the-future-solve-hydrogens-efficiency-problem/

 

I think it'll still be worthwhile to make SOME green hydrogen, since you need to for industrial purposes other than as fuel.

 

 

 

 

[Arron25]

11 hours ago, aro said:

At least with batteries the minerals are recyclable

How much Lithium is actually being recycled? not landfill?

[Freizeitpilot]

A non-fossil fuel solution for heavy road haulage still seems a challenge. Maybe this is where hydrogen will find a niche. (Not sure about nitrogen though)

There are already good heavy short haul solutions around using quick change battery packs, but the long distance road trains a still a bit of a head scratch.

[facthunter]

Use Electrified Rail Haulage. Unload at night.  Nev

[Freizeitpilot]

Ummm, western QLD ?? Ord river, etc, etc ?

[facthunter]

Why not? Roads get washed out. Remote places, by Rail to nearest Point. Nev

t

[Freizeitpilot]

When exploring a project near Chinchilla a few years ago, there were no rail slots available from there to the Port of Brisbane…..and a vague recollection there was a weight limit on the track as well.

 

 

[onetrack]

Only 5% of the lithium in Li-ion batteries is currently being recycled, which needs to increase. However, it's been found that the bigger lithium batteries are lasting longer than expected, and they're finding positions in other power generation use after they're removed from their primary use.

 

I would think the biggest problem as regards lithium going to landfill is the high level of small, consumer-level batteries that end up in landfill. The problem, as I see it, is that lithium battery disposal/recycling is unfairly being shouldered by local councils, who are often unable to fund proper recycling measures. Distance from recycling facilities is also a problem.

 

My personal opinion is that in the case of all manufactured products that are produced in huge quantities (such as tyres and batteries), the manufacturer should be made to take back their product for recycling at the end of its life.

We've seen China stop importation of Australian low-grade waste for recycling, saying we're dumping our waste on them - but 95% of that consumer waste comes from China, anyway!

 

Our landfills are full of Chinese products that are cast aside within a very short time, and this process has to cease, if we want to get a handle on minimising waste. The first thing we have to do is take the responsibility for waste processing and recycling off local councils, and initiate dedicated Federal or State recycling authority or authorities, that take over the disposal and control of all waste and recycling. 

 

And of course, we should impose higher taxes on products that are difficult or costly to recycle, and place lower taxes on products that are easy and relatively cheap to recycle.

 

Lead-acid batteries are looked down on today, but few people realise that about 98% of lead acid batteries are recycled today, and it's not something trumpeted from the rooftops, but the lead-acid battery industry is a class example of what a "circular economy" should look like.

[danny_galaga]

2 hours ago, Freizeitpilot said:

A non-fossil fuel solution for heavy road haulage still seems a challenge. Maybe this is where hydrogen will find a niche. (Not sure about nitrogen though)

There are already good heavy short haul solutions around using quick change battery packs, but the long distance road trains a still a bit of a head scratch.

For now, that might as well remain diesel. Let's save fossil fuels for necessities like this, and use electric where we can.

[aro]

11 hours ago, Moneybox said:

There are solar panels, their manufacture and installation. Then there are the wind turbines, their towers, blades, massive tracts of vegetation cleared to install them and of course all the man hours and machinery involved.

I think you're still underestimating the magnitude of the industry supporting fossil fuels, e.g. 40% of global shipping traffic is transporting coal, oil and gas. How many wind turbines can you build for the money and materials to build an an oil tanker?

 

Manufacturing and installing solar is very cheap now. I'm told it's now cheaper to install 1 MW of new solar than operate 1 MW of coal powered generators.

[BrendAn]

3 hours ago, facthunter said:

Why not? Roads get washed out. Remote places, by Rail to nearest Point. Nev

t

rail is never successful due to double handling.   its great with iron ore and grain because they only handle it once at each end.

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, aro said:

I think you're still underestimating the magnitude of the industry supporting fossil fuels, e.g. 40% of global shipping traffic is transporting coal, oil and gas. How many wind turbines can you build for the money and materials to build an an oil tanker?

 

Manufacturing and installing solar is very cheap now. I'm told it's now cheaper to install 1 MW of new solar than operate 1 MW of coal powered generators.

 

May be true however we have ample coal, oil and gas in Australia if we used our own. Why ship it out just to buy it back at inflated prices?

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, BrendAn said:

rail is never successful due to double handling.   its great with iron ore and grain because they only handle it once at each end.

 

Yes, with trucking in many cases the freight is loaded at its source and delivered to its destination without further handling. In the early days of rail in Australia there were may spur rail lines in the town and cities. Most of those spur rails have gone so access to rail is inconvenient for regular freight.

 

Perhaps we'll soon have unmanned flying machines picking freight up and dropping it right on the spot where it's needed or will the weight of the batteries exceed the weight of the freight?

[onetrack]

I doubt that any type of airfreight will ever become a viable option if any level of weight or size is involved. The exceptions are huge projects where downtime costs are astronomical (such as the 117-tonne generator flown into Perth on AN-224 Mriya in 2016), or where life-sustaining critical supplies are needed.

 

https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/antonov-an225-mriyas-117tonne-cargo-arrives-at-worsley-refinery-in-collie-20160516-gow4m7.html 

[onetrack]

Typo, sorry - meant to put "AN-225", didn't notice until long after the editing period ended.

[Moneybox]

We flew a Hummer in on Malaysian Airlines in 2005. The vehicle only weighed about 3.5T but it was strapped to a huge steel skid that must have weighed nearly as much. It was for a Pommy tourist who eventually disappeared. I was left with a $60,000 GST payment on his behalf.

 

Actually that looks to be too much, I really don't remember the debt now but we escaped it in the end. I was given the choice of destroying it or exporting it. I packed it into a container, exported it to Singapore and brought it back as a used vehicle at a fraction of the value and a fraction of the GST payable.

Edited Thursday at 11:12 AM by Moneybox

[onetrack]

There's a massive "green hydrogen" project planned for a coastal area on Murchison House Station, N of Kalbarri. A company called Murchison Green Hydrogen has set in place, plans for a massive "green hydrogen", highly complex production plant, that is going to use solar and wind power to desalinate sea water from the Indian Ocean, and turn it into green hydrogen.

 

However, the "green hydrogen" production is not being released for any kind of local transport, or even industrial use. Once the project produces the "green hydrogen", it is then going to turn the "green hydrogen into liquid ammonia, by combining it with nitrogen from the atmosphere - whereby the liquid ammonia is then going to be exported for industrial uses in other countries - which uses apparently centre around using the liquid ammonia to produce "green hydrogen" again, for industrial use. Nothing is mentioned anywhere, about a transportation use for the hydrogen produced.

 

To me, the entire project looks like a highly convoluted, costly, and economically borderline project - but it seems that Murchison Green Hydrogen are proceeding at full speed with the project, and it's planned to be in full production by 2031.

Interestingly, despite being largely funded by the Danish-based, global entity, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners - they have managed to convince the current Govt to give them around AU$800M in production incentives, to assist in getting the project off the ground. I fail to understand how, if the project is such a great idea, why it can't stand on its own feet, without Govt subsidies.

 

The project is proposing to produce around 900,000 tonnes of "green ammonia", which is around half of Australia's current production of ammonia from fossil fuels. The Asian economies are the ones being targeted for the bulk of the "green ammonia" production. I have this lingering suspicion that none of Murchison Green Hydrogen production and capability targets, will be met in the time frames stated.

 

https://www.murchisonrenewables.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Project-at-a-glance_ONE-PAGE.pdf

 

https://www.murchisonrenewables.com.au/

 

https://www.afr.com/policy/energy-and-climate/800m-pledge-keeps-labor-green-hydrogen-dream-alive-20250320-p5ll52

 

Edited Thursday at 01:49 PM by onetrack
clarity...