Landing Fees

[jackc]

1 hour ago, Garfly said:

This video sets out the somewhat similar situation in the US, but all based on ADSB data collection. It claims that this is contrary to  assurances from government that the data would never be used for non-safety-related purposes, nor for regulation enforcement.

 

(The key points are made between mins 05:00 and 10:00)

 

 

 

So if it becomes too hard to fly your N number aircraft?  Because of increasing regulations, increasing fees? Unfriendly airports? 
Those people who are sick of all the increasing b/s in Aviation in the U.S.?

They can still enjoy their Aviation pastime, albeit with some restrictions, just change to FAA FAR Part 103?  At least they are still able to fly low budget, and have fun 🤩

[Arron25]

14 hours ago, jackc said:

So if it becomes too hard to fly your N number aircraft?  Because of increasing regulations, increasing fees? Unfriendly airports? 
Those people who are sick of all the increasing b/s in Aviation in the U.S.?

They can still enjoy their Aviation pastime, albeit with some restrictions, just change to FAA FAR Part 103?  At least they are still able to fly low budget, and have fun 🤩

Bit hard to take the family in your FAR103🤔

[spacesailor]

At the cost of a little " Carbon Cub " the family can Afford one each .

spacesailor

[jackc]

2 hours ago, Arron25 said:

Bit hard to take the family in your FAR103🤔

Don’t need to worry about that, kids long gone. Wife is terminally ill, so only ME to worry about 🤩

[skippydiesel]

3 minutes ago, jackc said:

Don’t need to worry about that, kids long gone. Wife is terminally ill, so only ME to worry about 🤩

I feel for you😈

[sfGnome]

Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick with where this discussion has drifted (ie away from Skippy’s original issue with being charged for overflying), but I can’t see any issue with an airport charging whatever they want for you to use it. If they’re too expensive, then you just don’t use them, like any supplier. That being the case, it’s far better for them to bill you based on ADSB data than on radio calls. No more false identification. No possible charging for Skippy’s overfly. Incontrovertible proof that you did or didn’t use their services. 

[jackc]

22 minutes ago, skippydiesel said:

I feel for you😈

Please don’t, for my wife’s ashes will be in a ring on my finger, and she will be flying with me, no matter where I go, so I don’t need a right seat 🤩🤩

13 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

 

 

Edited yesterday at 12:40 AM by jackc
Cut sfGnomes text out

[skippydiesel]

20 minutes ago, sfGnome said:

Maybe I have the wrong end of the stick with where this discussion has drifted (ie away from Skippy’s original issue with being charged for overflying), but I can’t see any issue with an airport charging whatever they want for you to use it. If they’re too expensive, then you just don’t use them, like any supplier. That being the case, it’s far better for them to bill you based on ADSB data than on radio calls. No more false identification. No possible charging for Skippy’s overfly. Incontrovertible proof that you did or didn’t use their services. 

I guess the issue(s) come down to:

• Who controls/owns the air above an airfield?
• What rights does a PIC have to navigate where /whenever - subject to existing Federal airspace restrictions.?
• Should it become the  "norm" for airfield owners to charge for use of the airspace above - at what point should this charge be levied (height above, distance from, services (if any) provided)?
• What might be the implications eg avoidance leading to fuel exhaustion/forced landing, would declarde emergencies and emergency response aircraft be fee free ?
• Landing fees vary, $0-20 (probably more)/landing for an RAA level aircraft - how can this be justified (greed?)?

I feel that Australian pilots should remember, almost all airfields were owned by the Federal Government / US!. Due to the adoption of the now discredited Economic Rationalism /User Pays economic model, our short sighted Gov disposed of (sold & gifted) most of the airfields. Much like roads, rail, ports, electrical & water supply that are part of our essential (publicly owned) infrastructure, airfields that were completely open, are now restricted and/or being developed for non aviation purposes. Like most of the other public asset, that have been disposed of, this is an evolving  disaster that we the people have allowed to happen (she'll - be right - mate). Public infrastructure/services underpins the economic & social wellbeing of a country, we are the poorer/disadvantaged for the loss of such.😈

[BurnieM]

I do not think you will get the definitive answers you are looking for.

 

- the law is vague but it seems you can only 'enjoy its use' based on a ground based structure that extends into the airspace.

- same rights as we always had.

- I doubt any airfield owner can legally charge for airspace usage. Airfield usage is another story. If they try to charge for airspace then I would tell them to F... O.. go away. I believe they would lose any court case over airspace usage fees. They can of course then implement the bastard factor and refuse you permission to land and try to 'fine' you if you do. This would be an interesting court case.

- I would not allow this attempted bastardry to effect my emergency decision making but some might.

- I would probably accept up to $20 landing fee but (most times) you can chose not to land.

 

Edited yesterday at 01:45 AM by BurnieM

[skippydiesel]

BurnieM,

 

"They can of course then implement the bastard factor and refuse you permission to land and try to 'fine' you if you do."

 

If the PIC declares an emergency, they can land whoever they choose - may be bit of a problem if the emergency found to be bogus.

 

I agree with you - the market will decide what fees are acceptable.  Unfortunatly there are owners who will try to extort as high a fee as possible, rather than what's reasonable, for the service provided and the ware/tare of their asset. A fee per ton with minimum charge, is not realy reflective of the ware/tare generated by a 600 kg RAA aircraft.😈

[spacesailor]

so , If a RAA pilot floats down to an airfield  . ( not saying why )

will that pilot cop a fine for , not paying/informing airport management he was ,

a/ doing circuit, 

b/ unauthorised landing .

C/ using said airspace. 

Unauthorised fire in " fire-ban " time . ( plane crashb causes  inferno )..

Greedy people would have a party .

spacesailor

[BrendAn]

10 minutes ago, spacesailor said:

so , If a RAA pilot floats down to an airfield  . ( not saying why )

will that pilot cop a fine for , not paying/informing airport management he was ,

a/ doing circuit, 

b/ unauthorised landing .

C/ using said airspace. 

Unauthorised fire in " fire-ban " time . ( plane crashb causes  inferno )..

Greedy people would have a party .

spacesailor

They can get really cranky. I find it's much more relaxing just to turn the radio off and land after a couple of circuits . There is so much runway at Tullamarine the xair hardly needs any.

[jackc]

Let me say this, none of this is gonna get any better as time goes on. There will be more charges or restrictions on where you can land so the best bet is that as many people as possible band together and make landing places that are informal not widely published but shared amongst  like-minded groups of people,  and that way you can stage impromptu fly ins wherever you want on an as needed basis and stay away from the general area is populated by airports themselves.

you can have barbecue days get together’s whatever. For those that can build air strips with no restrictions or potential problems well then do it.. I’ve looked closely at this and decided I’m simply going to have a large paddock big enough to land anything in it of reasonable size, it won’t have a wind sock but it will have a weather station link through a large antenna set up on a Wi-Fi hub so you can fly within 5 km of my paddock. Read the weather station with the app on your iPhone or iPad and get wind speed wind direction. How much rain in the last 24 hours and whatever else that weather station will put out. Next, the  weather station will also be on the Internet and shared amongst people who are like-minded and may want to come to my paddock and land so that a day in advance they can see the weather conditions at my property. I could even make drums of fuel available for visitors and barbecue facilities. 
share the information amongst like-minded people and simply have fun doing it without the world or anyone else knowing what’s going on.

That way no visible windsock identifies it as an airfield its simply a large grass area. It happens to be conveniently available for aircraft to land on and takeoff. I can even make a car available for people who want to go to the local Bunnings or Supercheap  Aerospace to buy Chinesium  parts to fix their planes if they need to. 
The only problem will be the paddock won’t be large enough for 727s to throw big  doughnuts in 🤩🤩

[Blueadventures]

2 minutes ago, jackc said:

Let me say this, none of this is gonna get any better as time goes on. There will be more charges or restrictions on where you can land so the best bet is that as many people as possible band together and make landing places that are informal not widely published but shared amongst  like-minded groups of people,  and that way you can stage impromptu fly ins wherever you want on an as needed basis and stay away from the general area is populated by airports themselves.

you can have barbecue days get together’s whatever. For those that can build air strips with no restrictions or potential problems well then do it.. I’ve looked closely at this and decided I’m simply going to have a large paddock big enough to land anything in it of reasonable size, it won’t have a wind sock but it will have a weather station link through a large antenna set up on a Wi-Fi hub so you can fly within 5 km of my paddock. Read the weather station with the app on your iPhone or iPad and get wind speed wind direction. How much rain in the last 24 hours and whatever else that weather station will put out. Next, the  weather station will also be on the Internet and shared amongst people who are like-minded and may want to come to my paddock and land so that a day in advance they can see the weather conditions at my property. I could even make drums of fuel available for visitors and barbecue facilities. 
share the information amongst like-minded people and simply have fun doing it without the world or anyone else knowing what’s going on.

That way no visible windsock identifies it as an airfield its simply a large grass area. It happens to be conveniently available for aircraft to land on and takeoff. I can even make a car available for people who want to go to the local Bunnings or Supercheap  Aerospace to buy Chinesium  parts to fix their planes if they need to. 
The only problem will be the paddock won’t be large enough for 727s to throw big  doughnuts in 🤩🤩

No harm in a windsock for spray drift indication, like people have Lighthouses in their front yard and no ship movement there; also windmills and not pumping from bores.  Just erect one and have a couple of kites on the wall in your shed.  The wind sock will assist in launching the kites.

[Moneybox]

1 hour ago, Blueadventures said:

No harm in a windsock for spray drift indication, like people have Lighthouses in their front yard and no ship movement there; also windmills and not pumping from bores.  Just erect one and have a couple of kites on the wall in your shed.  The wind sock will assist in launching the kites.

 

My mining lease where I'm doing rehab good enough to land a plane on already has two badly weathered wind socks that just need a new sock. They are there so that anybody mining can prevent dust producing work when the wind is blowing towards town.