training in your own aircraft

[BrendAn]

can anyone tell me why raaus won't allow me to train in my 19 reg xair yet they are happy for me to do all my endorsements in it.

if i was the owner builder or helped in the building of it i would have been allowed to train in it .

i know its nothing to do with the safety of the instructor because he is allowed to go on xcountry nav exercises in it.

it can only be protectionism for flying schools so they can profit off their own aircraft which i understand but the trouble is 

i only want to fly slow rag and tube ac but schools only have 90 kn plus sleek machines that appeal to students that want to 

go on to bigger and better aircraft. i can't be the only one that wants to fly just for the enjoyment of it surely.

last night i spent hours trolling through the raaus manuals looking for this rule but i can't find anything at all.

i am wondering if that office in canberra just make stuff up when it suits them . 

i am going email as many of the hierachy as i can and ask for the section of the manual that rules against me because i can't 

find it. 

[Moneybox]

16 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

can anyone tell me why raaus won't allow me to train in my 19 reg xair yet they are happy for me to do all my endorsements in it.

if i was the owner builder or helped in the building of it i would have been allowed to train in it .

i know its nothing to do with the safety of the instructor because he is allowed to go on xcountry nav exercises in it.

it can only be protectionism for flying schools so they can profit off their own aircraft which i understand but the trouble is 

i only want to fly slow rag and tube ac but schools only have 90 kn plus sleek machines that appeal to students that want to 

go on to bigger and better aircraft. i can't be the only one that wants to fly just for the enjoyment of it surely.

last night i spent hours trolling through the raaus manuals looking for this rule but i can't find anything at all.

i am wondering if that office in canberra just make stuff up when it suits them . 

i am going email as many of the hierachy as i can and ask for the section of the manual that rules against me because i can't 

find it. 

I asked them. I was told by my previous trainer to go home and get my plane in the air so that I could do my solos in it. RAAus looked into it because the MARAP document on their website says that in most cases it can be used for training. The came back with an old CASA ruling that states that my out of life engine was not allowed to be used in training however it can be used for any endorsements. It's worth making a call or send an email if you want the reply in writing. At least it sets you're mind to rest.

My new trainer doesn't have his Sportstar endorsement so we plan to do a navigation circuit lasting several hours him as PIC and me doing the navigation. If you never hear from me again it most likely means I've got us lost somewhere a long way from nowhere. 

[Blueadventures]

28 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

can anyone tell me why raaus won't allow me to train in my 19 reg xair yet they are happy for me to do all my endorsements in it.

if i was the owner builder or helped in the building of it i would have been allowed to train in it .

i know its nothing to do with the safety of the instructor because he is allowed to go on xcountry nav exercises in it.

it can only be protectionism forHhrough the raaus manuals looking for this rule but i can't find anything at all.

i am wondering if that office in canberra just make stuff up when it suits them . 

i am going email as many of the hierachy as i can and ask for the section of the manual that rules against me because i can't 

find it. 

Hopefully an instructor can advise the rules about this.  I may be incorrect with the following; I believe that the initial training to solo and certificate is to be on a factory aircraft.  Then subsequent endorsements may be in a 19 aircraft that you own; and its up to the instructor if they are happy to fly in such aircraft.  I may be incorrect here so await knowledgeable advice.  Cheers.

Edited Saturday at 07:24 AM by Blueadventures

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, Moneybox said:

I asked them. I was told by my previous trainer to go home and get my plane in the air so that I could do my solos in it. RAAus looked into it because the MARAP document on their website says that in most cases it can be used for training. The came back with an old CASA ruling that states that my out of life engine was not allowed to be used in training however it can be used for any endorsements. It's worth making a call or send an email if you want the reply in writing. At least it sets you're mind to rest.

My new trainer doesn't have his Sportstar endorsement so we plan to do a navigation circuit lasting several hours him as PIC and me doing the navigation. If you never hear from me again it most likely means I've got us lost somewhere a long way from nowhere. 

i have argued with them before about this. i want to know why i can do all the endorsements in it but not finish my solo training. there is nothing that i can find in the manuals.

[Blueadventures]

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

i have argued with them before about this. i want to know why i can do all the endorsements in it but not finish my solo training. there is nothing that i can find in the manuals.

I guess its along the lines that if you have an accident your inexperience (not gaining certificate after required training and solo hours) could be a contributing factor.  Seems fair as the training school aircraft should be in good airworthy condition and after the solo hours you will be better experienced.

[BrendAn]

2 minutes ago, Blueadventures said:

Hopefully an instructor can advise the rules about this.  I may be incorrect with the following; I believe that the initial training to solo and certificate is to be on a factory aircraft.  Then subsequent endorsements may be in a 19 aircraft that you own; and its up to the instructor if they are happy to fly in such aircraft.  I may be incorrect here so await knowledgeable advice.  Cheers.

yes but where is it in writing. i know a great instructor that has delivered xairs all over aus so that is not a problem.  if i had helped the builder for a couple of hours i  would be allowed to use it . it just does not make any sense. i have to be missing something in the manual but i can't find it.

on the xair australia website micheal coates stated that if you buy a 19 reg used you become the owner builder and can use it to train yourself.

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, Blueadventures said:

I guess its along the lines that if you have an accident your inexperience (not gaining certificate after required training and solo hours) could be a contributing factor.  Seems fair as the training school aircraft should be in good airworthy condition and after the solo hours you will be better experienced.

that doesn't make sense because they would only let you use your own ac after an inspection and annual.

what difference does it make if the instructor is beside you in their plane or yours.

[BurnieM]

You could push this or you could let it lie.

One option if you p*ss off particular people is they could say you cannot use your 19- aircraft for any training including endorsements.

 

[BrendAn]

Just now, BurnieM said:

You could push this or you could let it lie.

One option if you p*ss off particular people is they could say you cannot use your 19- aircraft for any training including endorsements.

 

that would just mean they were  making up their own rules as they go along which i think is what happens anyway

[BrendAn]

4 minutes ago, BurnieM said:

You could push this or you could let it lie.

One option if you p*ss off particular people is they could say you cannot use your 19- aircraft for any training including endorsements.

 

are you an ra member or ga

[BurnieM]

7 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

that would just mean they were  making up their own rules as they go along which i think is what happens anyway

Not disagreeing with you just asking, is rocking the boat wise ?

 

RA member

 

Edited Saturday at 07:59 AM by BurnieM

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, BurnieM said:

Not disagreeing with you just asking, is rocking the boat wise ?

 

RA member

 

yes i  understand, i thought if you were ga you might know how frustrating raaus can be . most of the time my dealings with them have been great but this topic drives me bananas.

they even have a section in the members portal about how many raa members have crashed going from the aircraft they trained in to one  they purchased for themselves without  

doing proper conversions.  i want to train and fly in the same aircraft. 

[BrendAn]

i should say finish training. i have soloed and have over 30 hrs logged so far.  

[jackc]

My Thruster T300 was grounded from training, on a phone call from RAAus, no documentation,  no letter nothing.

no reason either. 
The lady was not nice about it, either.  So I told her to do what she liked, I guessed the 582 may have Been close to time out?

My logbook showed OK. I told her I had a brand new zero timed complete factory engine to put in, anyway. 
I think my parting shot was…..leave me alone.  I also have a complete new set of approved skins for it, too.

so they can shove that as well…….f…..them. 🤩

Now……mmmmmm…….think I can put on the VH register? Might be my next plan, crapping on me is not a good idea 👍

[BrendAn]

i got the answer just now from micheal monck , and a serve for my bad attitude, thats fair enough, at least i got an answer.  its a casa rule not raaus are trying to get it changed.

 

 

CASA writes an exemption for us (RAAus) to operate under. It includes this passage below:

in the case of a two-place aeroplane that is an amateur-built aeroplane, a kit-built aeroplane … flying training to enable:

(i) any owner or part-owner who contributed to its fabrication and assembly to obtain a pilot certificate, rating or endorsement; or

(ii) any owner or part-owner who did not contribute to its fabrication and assembly to obtain a rating or endorsement.

Edited Saturday at 09:12 AM by BrendAn

[jackc]

 But it does not indicate under what part, or rule identification  it comes under.

Michael should have quoted the relevant document in its entirety, with references. 
I believe him to be correct, though. It’s easy to serve someone in a text msg, but outcome of same conversation face to face, is usually far different, even a phone call is better than text msgs. 

[BrendAn]

Just now, jackc said:

 But it does not indicate under what part, or rule identification  it comes under.

Michael should have quoted the relevant document in its entirety, with references. 
I believe him to be correct, though. It’s easy to serve someone in a text msg, but outcome of same conversation face to face, is usually far different, even a phone call is better than text msgs. 

he did send a link . i will post it.

[BrendAn]

 https://www.legislation.gov.au/F2024L01540/asmade/text, look for section 8(e)(i) & (ii).

 

[BrendAn]

so now i know its casa stopping me , i know i can't win. 

i am over it . its too bloody hard for something that is supposed to be enjoyable.

 

[Moneybox]

Similar to my result. When there is a clear ruling from CASA I'm happy to accept that. I too felt like I'd received information that was more somebody's opinion than a directive from above but once they quoted the ruling I was satisfied.

[jackc]

19 minutes ago, BrendAn said:

so now i know its casa stopping me , i know i can't win. 

i am over it . its too bloody hard for something that is supposed to be enjoyable.

 

Now you now WHY I am championing the cause, for FAA FAR Part 103 as per U.S. rules for Australia?

I am in the process of building a case, in my submission to the Minister for Aviation and CASA to hear my case heard.

I am currently in contact with the U.S. as part of my process, in an attempt to further that case.

Right now, I won’t say any more than that.

I know people will bag me for it, but I have NEVER let other human beings define me 🤩

[BrendAn]

1 minute ago, jackc said:

Now you now WHY I am championing the cause, for FAA FAR Part 103 as per U.S. rules for Australia?

I am in the process of building a case, in my submission to the Minister for Aviation and CASA to hear my case heard.

I am currently in contact with the U.S. as part of my process, in an attempt to further that case.

Right now, I won’t say any more than that.

I know people will bag me for it, but I have NEVER let other human beings define me 🤩

there was a group pushing for p103 but they gave up.  there have even been senior members of raaus that supported p103 but they didn't succeed either.

its a long battle you are facing.

 

[jackc]

Just now, BrendAn said:

there was a group pushing for p103 but they gave up.  there have even been senior members of raaus that supported p103 but they didn't succeed either.

its a long battle you are facing.

 

 

1 minute ago, BrendAn said:

there was a group pushing for p103 but they gave up.  there have even been senior members of raaus that supported p103 but they didn't succeed either.

its a long battle you are facing.

 

I love a Battle🤩 in my past I have had Commonwealth Legislation changed, battled one of the largest  Corporations in the World and won, single handed.

IF you don’t have a go, you will never know 🤩

[Red]

I thought you were moving to the land of the free

[jackc]

Was made that offer to set up my business in San Francisco years ago, as I had a few day job clients there.

but declined it.

Now, I can afford to fly there in the future, 4 time a year to fly Part 103, offer to keep my aircraft at  friends ranch I have known for 25 years from my 4x4 trips years ago.