Attributes of an Airman.

May 28, 2008

As a mater of interest, what would it cost to get a full IFR private licence and a fully avionics kitted Cirrus aircraft - thats the one with the 'safe' ballistic parachute...

... $500,000 maybe, $600,000... anyone ?

.

May 28, 2008

High Plains Drifter has run into or raised a problem that I have given a little thought to and that is the definition of "safety".

This is one of those occasions where the limitations of our english language structure really stop us from recognising and mentally structuring our mental processes to a number of somewhat different concepts involving safety.

There are at least three different forms of "safety" that I can identify in Ultra Light Aviation and there may be a lot more than three.

"Safety" number one; First there is the "safety" of thoroughly checking the mechanical operation of your aircraft both short term and long term.

It is an absolute "safety"; It would be stupid, ie; unsafe, to take off knowing that there is a serious mechanical or serious fault of some type with your aircraft that could fail under some circumstances that may be encountered during that flight and which could / will lead to the possible destruction of the aircraft if there is an actual failure.

"Safety" number two; This "Safety" is the absolute care that is required to ensure that you do no harm to another person through an act or a failure to act on your part.

"Safety" in this case is always doing circuits using standard procedures and looking out for other aviators, of watching and checking for others while on the ground before starting up or taxing, of not taking any real open and known risks when you have passengers who have entrusted their lives to you and your skill, of thoroughly checking for the known and unknown risks before embarking on a long or over rough terrain flight.

And that is only a couple of examples here.

Then there is "Safety" number three; The limits of personal risk that you are prepared to take to give you the stimulation and get the adrenalin flowing that gives you the kick that you get out of flying and that keeps you flying and not getting bored out of your cotton picking mind.

That "safety" has all sorts of levels for different people and different moods of the same person but it is a flexible safety that allows risks that you are prepared to take within your own personal limits and sometimes, occasionally to your regret, outside of your personal limits.

"Safety" has a number of shaded meanings in aviation which our language structure cannot adequately reflect so we can often get our selves into knots while talking about "safety" and we can often be talking about two slightly different concepts and cannot understand why the other person cannot see it our way.

May 28, 2008

ROM, I have to say I agree with much you write in regard to safe piloting skills. This thread, aparently, is more aimed at pilot attitudes to flight safety. Probably part of my previous posts in this thread were out of place here.

As I mentioned in this and other threads, difficult subject safety in the RAAus. I find I sometimes get a little short of patience with this issue - cut to the chase, so to speak.

So often these safety threads lead to a call of safety enhancement that costs more money, every year there is something more that is going to make it more expensive to fly - some new must have gadget... some new idea that ends up being GA all over again.

.

Kelvin · May 28, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Rather than this constant harping on "SAFETY" perhaps a more realistic approach would be to know both youre's and the your flight project's limits and learn to operate with in those personal limits that each and everyone of us have. That "safety" has all sorts of levels for different people and different moods of the same person but it is a flexible safety that allows risks that you are prepared to take within your own personal limits and sometimes, occasionally to your regret, outside of your personal limits.

Thanks ROM, I suppose two people looking at the same issue may have different perceptions and to them it is reality. Perhaps thats why we have arguments, divorces and wars.

099_off_topic.gif.20188a5321221476a2fad1197804b380.gif

On reflection, your quotes above (2) may well be our tenth attribute without doubling up.

10. Pilots operate and fly within their own limits (ROM 28.5.08).

Unless someone else has an idea for another attribute, we can move onto cross checking these ten attributes against the 10 Safety-Driven Values that should enable us to aquire these Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix, as we see fit to do so.

Kelvin (with a long way to go having taken the first steps)

May 28, 2008

Thanks Mike, Nothing much has changed between qualities and attributes over the past year or so. What qualities aligns with these attributes raised over the last week?1. Human Error is Recognised and Controlled (Flyer40) 1. = Careful
2. Self-imposed flying discipline is a widespread practice (Yenn). 2. = Inquisitive

3. Double checks occur naturally before deciding on an emergency response (Yenn). 3. = Decisive

4. Learning from others experiences is multitudinous (facthunter). 4. = Attentive, Observant

5. Flying enjoyment is tempered by an inherent risk exposure (High Plains Drifter) 5. = Uneasy

6. Safety Procedures are never taken lightly (Mazda) 6. = Alert

7. Courtesy is regarded as a welcomed responsibility (Mazda) 7. = Courteous,

8. Effective decisions arise from sound situational awareness (TOSGcentral). 8. = Adapt and Current

9. Pilot performance enhances aviation's reputation (Matt). 9. = Communicative

I suppose this looks like a best-fit analysis. Can enyone convert Mike's qualities into an imperative or attribute that will capture it all without doubling up on the nine we already have?

Kelvin (with a long way to go with a little help)

G'day Kelvin,

that mapping doesn't work for me. I suspect because they are not easily mappable.

Careful isn't limited to human error
These two are nothing to do with each other. Conservative would be a better fit but still not right;
Again nothing to do with each other;
My two attributes are more about flying rather than reflecting about flying which is Nev's point I think;
This nearly works but uneasy isn't about lack of enjoyment it is about a state of mind;
Again alert is about in the moment whereas the other point is about about the moment;
Yes they match
These are the exact opposite of each other and it should be adept not adapt. Tony is talking about the management of the context within which the aircraft operates. I'm talking principally about the management of the aircraft although I do move into the aircraft in its context;
I don't think these two are together.

I suspect that the mismatch is caused by us talking about two different things: Your list of 9 (now 10) is at one level removed from the actual operation of the aircraft - you are talking about thinking about the operation of the aircraft. I am talking about the conduct of the operation of the aircraft. There will naturally be a mismatch, indeed they are two sides of the same coin.

Nice thread.

Regards

Mike

May 28, 2008

Slightly off-topic, but very pertinently aligned, this has indeed been a very good thread. The main struggle (as has been pointed out above) is defining the point of reference that viewpoints and therefore suggestions are based upon.

I would recommend anyone to have a read of a book - "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". It has preciousl little to do with fixing motor bikes and even less to do with Zen. It is in fact a philosophical journey and discourse where the prime aim is to define the meaning of the term "Quality".

This has been one of the most influential books that I have read and I would greatly recommend it for personal life reading as well as giving profound insights into tackling abstracts that have every surface appearance of being tangible - until you attempt to get hold of them.

Kelvin · May 28, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Thanks Mike, Yep, on reflection your right. It's an attempt to drill-down and find another attribute with your ownership. Your 11 inspirational qualities set last year should still have a place in this social change process. Let's revisit them as this process evolves.

Kelvin (with a long way to go but not on his own)

facthunter · May 29, 2008

Summary.

Kelvin, I don't quite know what you are trying to achieve here. If it is some sort of survey of a"culture of safety" in RAAus.,I would have to question the validity of your conclusions. I would not be comfortable putting much weight on it at present.

HPD., I am fully with you on the cost issues. The "SAFE", expensive aeroplanes are let down by the failings of the pilot. It's hardly ever the fault of the equipment. Possibly we have a larger number of equipment failures, (I don't have the stats) but the simplicity of our craft, and lower operational speeds (on the ground) are plus's. Again, the way the pilot operates the aircraft will be the major determinant of how safe it is, (IN BOTH CASES)

Proper training and the development of good attitudes would be the most effective area to explore. ( more results for your dollar).BUT IT HAS TO BE DONE RIGHT!

.... Red tape I hate, (YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT). I also believe that an informed person in a reasonably free society has the right to indulge in fairly risky pastimes as long as society doesn't have to pay the consequences.

ROM, I don't really think that flying ULTRALIGHTS, or whatever we want to call them is dangerous enough (DONE PROPERLY) to satisfy the thrillseekers, and I think they would be disappointed, but there may be quite a few people who feel that attraction, but I would not encourage it. Eventually pilots who push the boundaries fall victim to that fascination. There has to be some self-discipline, and that doesn't make flying boring. There's always some little surprise waiting to catch you when you're napping. I always feel that "there are enough UNKNOWN hazards in flying without creating KNOWN ones.. Nev.

Mazda · May 29, 2008

Yes, I've read Zen and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance. The thing that stuck in my mind was the comment about driving a car being like sitting at home on a lounge chair, watching the world through that TV screen windscreen. Whereas being on a bike is like being inside the world, part of the world, not looking at a screen. I find flying canopy aircraft to be like that.

The "affordable safety" issue is an interesting one. To have the same safety features as an airline aircraft in an RAA or small GA aircraft would mean most of us could never afford to learn to fly.

I've heard it said that the important thing is to allocate the money that is available in the best way by addressing known risks. Would you be better off using your money for a ballistic parachute, or would it be better to spend the same money on additional training, or putting it towards new avionics or an engine overhaul?

Maybe though in the serious aspects of all of this we've missed something that ROM was getting at. Of course we do everything we can to minimise unnecessary risk. Is there more to it though? Is there a little bit of Richard Bach in all of us, just longing to be up there? Swooping around like birds, seeing things that many others will never see? Haven't we all had those special moments up there that we cannot possibly explain to people who don't fly? It's that spirit that makes us feel alive, and it may not involve any risk at all. It could be watching the sunrise as we taxi out and knowing we will soon be up there. Is that Richard Bach 'spirit of flight' factor an important attribute of an aviator?

Kelvin · May 29, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Kelvin, I don't quite know what you are trying to achieve here. If it is some sort of survey of a"culture of safety" in RAAus.,I would have to question the validity of your conclusions. I would not be comfortable putting much weight on it at present.

Thanks Neville, Yes, it is about surveying the culture then deciding on what we can do to improve it, within our means. The methodology is called Values-Driven Safety (VDS). It is also a social science process deals with the draconian aspects of traditional safety where laws are imposed for the so called "good-of-the-workers" but the workers, more often than not, don't see it that way and balk at being treated like school children. I have used it in the building and construction industry where my peers said it could not be done. Now, some of them have had second thoughts. It's a bit like flying and that quote that goes something like, "Once being up there you will always be looking up". I have been given free access to the intellectual property to use, because the founder said I'd earned it. As we go through the next step or two we decide how much weight we put on it and not someone else on our behalf. Having said that you and others will want to know more before the next steps materalize. Message me your contact datails and I can send you articles or just explain by phone. More than likely I'll bump into you around Bruce's office in the coming weeks.

Kelvin (with along way to go, even when it gets a bit bumpy)

May 29, 2008

Nev, I think you are using the definitive and emotive term "thrill seeker" as applied to my submission in a much harsher manner than I am trying to express.

The "thrill seeker" that you are implying I am discussing is right out on the extremes of the flying community.

They are there and they are there in some numbers so there is no denying that but they are also very important in the overall flying community as a yard stick as to what can be achieved at the outer edges of sport flying and as a measure as to what the real limitations are for the ordinary pilot.

The guys and girls, ie us, who fly the sports type aircraft are in our own ways also "thrill seekers" but we would not place that particular extreme description on ourselves

[ Language limitations again!]

Hang a blood pressure gauge or a pulse rate monitor on just about any pilot who is about to fly, is taking off, who is heading out on a long flight over an unknown area, who is getting a bit roughed up by the weather and you will find that very, very few aren't responding to these stimuli.

If the situation remains within their own personal safety limitations or their comfort zone they will nearly always go back for more of the same at the first opportunity.

If their experience is outside of their own personal safety comfort zone they will try to avoid that experience again.

Go with a pilot on a local flight and often you will be frisking around the sky like a dog just let off the leash.

And why? To get the adrenalin running, to be alive and to have that tiny taste of fear that gives so many people a big buzz.

To me that makes a pilot, in your parlance, a "thrill seeker" but still a very safe pilot as he / she are flying well within their own "safety limitations" and that is why so many of us just keep right on flying.

Kelvin · May 29, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

To me that makes a pilot, in your parlance, a "thrill seeker" but still a very safe pilot as he / she are flying well within their own "safety limitations" and that is why so many of us just keep right on flying.

ROM, This post has just earnt you some 'brownie points', but it was people on the forum that 'extracted' it out of you. :thumb_up: We need this sort of insight from time to time if we are to move forward. Who was it that said, "If your not moving forwards, your are going backwards" in a developmental sense?

It also underscores your attribute, 10. Pilots operate and fly within their own limits (ROM 28.5.08).

Kelvin, (with a long way to go, without standing still for a moment)

drifter_driver · May 29, 2008

ROMâ€™s posts have truly captured the essence and spirit of ultralight flying in my opinion. Once adequate safety standards of established norms have been reached and maintained law of diminishing returns still apply for further improvements. One can go all the way to high tech GA style systems with added costs and there will still be room for improvements. The nature of the sport also has a limiting effect upon ultimate safety e.g. one can only do so much to improve the safety of the sport of base-jumping.

I am in no way trying to minimize the importance of life long learning required in our sport but rather acceptance of inherent risks present.

May 29, 2008

[snip]
Hang a blood pressure gauge or a pulse rate monitor on just about any pilot who is about to fly, is taking off, who is heading out on a long flight over an unknown area, who is getting a bit roughed up by the weather and you will find that very, very few aren't responding to these stimuli.

[snip]

I'm worried about this. If you are in a high state of arousal - increased pulse rate and BP - in the pre-flight, take-off and normal operating regimes, including planned flight over difficult terrain, then that is concerning. Yes you should be sufficiently aroused to be performing appropriately, but not such that you are likely to be in that "rush of blood to the head" situation.

When stuff goes pear shaped then you expect that arousal will increase and up to a certain point that will aid performance. Beyond that point, increased arousal is counterproductive. If you are substantially aroused by normal ops - pre-flight take-off, en-route etc - then you have a potential performance deficit combined with a potentially negative impact on judgement.

Our training and currency should be such that opening the throttle doesn't also elevate our BP.

Regards

Mike

Kelvin · May 29, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

I think I posted something about my little accident way back, but it is lost in time now, so I will repeat it.I was flying at Old Station using 09 - 27 strip. Well away from 06 - 24.
Normal practice was to actually land on the taxiway from the hangar to the strip and that was what I was doing with a heavy passenger. There is a very large double gate between taxiway and strip, always closed, so landing has to be completed before you get to the gate.

All went well as usual until I had doubts about stopping before the gate as I had no brakes. Instant decision. Apply power, jump the fence, turn 20 degrees or so and land on 09.

The result is I jumped the fence and while gradually turning, reducing power I found a big mound of soil beside the runway in the long grass, with the Stbd wheel. It really spoilt my day, but no injuries except to pride and wallet.

What I should have done is go around and do the job properly rather than trying to save having to open and close the gate.

Thanks Ian (Yenn 26.5.08) There are some learning experiences to be gleaned from your 'report' through safety science and cause elements: design, enviroment and behaviour. If I may venture a little with some discussion points like;

DESIGN: Limited landing distance. No braking capability.

ENVIRONMENT: Heavy passanger-Higher stall speed. Obscured surface obstruction.

BEHAVIOUR: Saving time and effort.

I suppose at least that gives us more prevention options and control measurers.

Remove anyone of these 6 causes and nothing would have happened.

Are there any other causes I may have missed?

Kelvin (with a long way to go and looking for more learning experiences)

facthunter · May 30, 2008

Survey.

OK .Kelvin I got the feeling that this was an offshoot of some programme that you have been involved with.... and such is the case? That's fine by me, not that I am in any way, an arbiter. My interest in these matters goes back a long time . There was, believe it or not, a time (back in the 70's) when CASA briefly indulged in allowing human factors considerations into incident/ accident investigations. Not such a radical idea with todays attitudes, but then well.. something else. I was involved representing aircrew who had caught the eye of the authority and when the explanation of why the crews had "transgressed" resulted in a situation where punitive action was more difficult to apply CASA walked away from it. surprise surprise! The situation became too complex and the entrenched attitude re-asserted itself. It was the initiative of a farsighted individual ( Hi, Paul C.) who would have been over-ruled by the establishment anyhow.

I cannot gauge the attitude of the people who are joining the ranks of RAAus. The attitudes are very different from the people who trained with me initially. and that probably reflects changes in society generally. We have people from ALL walks of life in our ranks. It can be quite surprising, and I'm not sure how representative the people on this forum are of the other 80 -odd percent of our numbers, either. I make this observation, not with the intention of inhibiting discussion, but pointing out the dangers of drawing conclusions from a group whose input might not be representative of the whole . Nev..

Kelvin · May 30, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Thanks Neville. Second opinions like this, causes us to reflect on what were doing and consider refinements. :thumb_up:

Regulators, I believe they are busy about dealing with recidivist and recalcitrant elements within our society after the event and being a deterrent to others before the event. What we could always do better is finding ways to promote a risk resistant culture that will tend to keep us out of the headlines, without putting too fine a point on it. We'll know how we are performing by the duration of enjoying affordable flying. Perhaps that was what's behind the invitation to comment on aviation safety compared to other industry and offer ideas and suggestions. This is what I have come up with.

In reviewing the 10 attributes:

1. Human Error is Recognised and Controlled (Flyer40 8.5.08).

2. Self-imposed flying discipline is a widespread practice (Yenn 25.5.08).

3. Double checks occur naturally before deciding on an emergency response (Yenn 25.5.08).

4. Learning from others experiences is multitudinous (facthunter 25.5.08).

5. Flying enjoyment is tempered by an inherent risk exposure (High Plains Drifter 27.5.08)

6. Safety Procedures are never taken lightly (Mazda 27.5.08)

7. Courtesy is regarded as a welcomed responsibility (Mazda 27.5.08)

8. Effective decisions arise from sound situational awareness (TOSGcentral 28.5.08).

9. Pilots operate and fly within their own limits (ROM 28.5.08)

10. Pilot performance enhances aviation's reputation (Matt 28.5.08).

are there any that would lead directly or inadvertently to increased flying costs:question:

Kelvin (with a long way to go and hoping to get right the first time).

Mazda · May 30, 2008

Kelvin I'm not too sure about the term 'risk resistant' because flying does have a degree of risk. If we were all 'risk resistant' maybe we'd never fly over the mountains or do a coastal scenic flight along a headland. No one would ever fly at night. These things are all 'risky' to a degree, but people do them by assessing and managing that risk as best they can.

When we start out we are all taking (calculated) risks - that is how we learn. An instructor sending someone on their first solo is surely taking a calculated risk!! We cannot set personal limits without knowing what those limits are, and we'll only know what they are by getting close to them - i.e. taking risks. A new pilot might only be comfortable in 5 knots of crosswind and set that as a personal limit. How will they know they are ready to increase that personal limit? Maybe when 5 knots seems easy, they decide to push that personal limit and try one with 8 knots. That goes well, so the personal limit increases.

That applies to a lot of things about flying. I'm not talking about cowboy actions, I'm talking about taking responsible, calculated risks. Like it or not, that is part of flying.

Yenn · May 31, 2008

Mazda. What you are saying sounds to me like ongoing training. I don't mean training with an instructor but self training, by doing something new or practicing something old. Maybe something read about in a magazine or talked about with fellow aviators. In short just what i like doing. It is good to go out and try slow flying, or steep turns, just for fun at a safe height, or even drop down to 500' AGL for a few minutes where there is a way out if the engine fails, just to see how different it is from flying high.

June 1, 2008

How do pilots develope airmanship?

There is a research project underway at the University of Newcastle on â€œHow do Pilots Develop airmanshipâ€.

To get further information or help do one of the following;

- Find Web based information and survey access at http://psych.newcastle.edu.au/airmanship

- Email Kristie for information and a word version of the survey [email protected]

- Phone Kristie on 02 4921 7396

Kelvin · June 2, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Thanks Macnoz, :thumb_up:

I have completed the survey after talking to Kristie and knowing it was more of a GA focus with the summary being forwarded onto CASA. However, she said she'd been aware of our thread and copied it because of its relevance to her interests and research.

While we have developed something by way of a more structured approach from our own perceptions of a good pilot, it is still a tool to stimulate discussion and nothing more than that. Thats not to say there are any restrictions from taking it on board should we want to at some time later on. We have our own 10 Attributes that may be further developed through a "Customised Beliefs and Values" document followed by a "Correlation Matrix" in the coming days. We may even end up with a "Values-Driven Safety Maturity Grid" that will enable us to go on expressing views of where we are, at any given time.

Kelvin (with a long way to go and avoiding restrictions where ever possible)

Kelvin · June 3, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

I cannot gauge the attitude of the people who are joining the ranks of RAAus. The attitudes are very different from the people who trained with me initially. and that probably reflects changes in society generally. We have people from ALL walks of life in our ranks. It can be quite surprising, and I'm not sure how representative the people on this forum are of the other 80 -odd percent of our numbers, either. I make this observation, not with the intention of inhibiting discussion, but pointing out the dangers of drawing conclusions from a group whose input might not be representative of the whole

. Thanks Neville, Given that the thread has been visited over 600 times to see whats going on, if I take the next step based on what has already been posted on thread we can align our current beliefs and values with the universal 10 aquisition values to see how it looks. [ATTACH]5826.vB[/ATTACH][ Please lets know what you think, given there a few steps to go if we want to in the interest of useful discussion.

Kelvin (with a long way to go regardless of effort required)

Acquisition Values with customised ideal beliefs-values 08..doc

Yenn · June 4, 2008

Acquisition Values with customised ideal beliefs-values 08..doc

I wonder if we are straying into the bull phase here, with lots of written or spoken words and not a lot of worthwhile meaning. The same place as some of the industrial safety training, where it was considered a good idea to blather on rather than talk sensibly. Similar to political correctness.

Kelvin · June 4, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

Thanks Ian,:thumb_up: I take your point about meaningless words and 'blather on' within industrial training. Unfortunately, we have many non-sensical apparitions imposed on us by well meaning practitioners dabbling in psychology all too often beyond their depth. That would be the ingredients to a point where we, being a part of this discussion forum, are caused to stray onto the 'bull phase'. Your previous post (25.5.08) on what makes a good pilot, encourages me to believe there will be little chance of us 'straying' on this thread. Most of us are much more comfortable talking about our own culture as in social science because we know plenty about it through our life experiences, particularly when it comes to flying for fun.

Kelvin (with a long way to go before 'floating' on cloud nine)

Kelvin · June 6, 2008

Desirable Attributes of an Aviator/Aviatrix.

"Safety" has a number of shaded meanings in aviation which our language structure cannot adequately reflect so we can often get our selves into knots while talking about "safety" and we can often be talking about two slightly different concepts and cannot understand why the other person cannot see it our way.

Thanks ROM. I guess the 'knots' have a lot to do with our perceptions being reality to us as individuals. Our beliefs and values are being constantly reinforced or challanged, particularly when someone says "Where have you been the last 10 years?". Undoing the knots is perhaps both desirable and akin to what we have been doing since you posted this quote on 29.5.08. We now have three of our own self assessment or reflection one page docs to help undo the 'knots'. We can reflect on them for further discussion, even modify, print and frame them, if we want to. They are still only half way into a mapped out process to better understand our own culture and design changes, based on our own beliefs and values. Culture changes in aviation is going to happen anyway, it just enables us I think to be a little more proactive.

Kelvin (with a long way to go, hopefully without getting lost)

Recreational Flying Good Pilot Attributes.doc

Acquisition Values with customised ideal beliefs-values 08..doc

Attributes of an Aviator-Aviatrix.doc

Recreational Flying Good Pilot Attributes.doc

Acquisition Values with customised ideal beliefs-values 08..doc

Attributes of an Aviator-Aviatrix.doc

Recreational Flying Good Pilot Attributes.doc

Acquisition Values with customised ideal beliefs-values 08..doc

Attributes of an Aviator-Aviatrix.doc