Allegro

[Guest micgrace]

Hi guys

 

I'm thinking of converting to an Allegro after having a bit of instruction in one over the weekend. I was most impressed by the 14:1 glide ratio and fast rate of climb (1,400 fpm). Plus electric flaps plus plus.

 

And the throttle/stick suits a drifter jockey well. (throttle beside seat, stick between seats. (ok a little offset) Unusual with a "T" tail

 

I did find controls sensitive with rolling in with rudder only easily. Did all required manouveres as per instructor Stalls in all configurations (no flap, stage one, two) plus couple circuits.

 

Anyone out there got any comments on the Allegro with some flight time in one?

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I've done the odd hour in one. Nice machine overall. Not particularly roomy for the tall pilot as your head is up in the aileron pushrods. Seat is nicely adjustable. Doesn't feel quite as "GA / Solid" as a Jabiru though, in comparison, probably because of the perspex doors and windscreen. Feels a little more like an "ultralight." Somewhat pitchsensitive in comparison to otheraircraft. Rotate much much slower than a Jab and a very short takeoff - potentially as low as 100 metres, same goes for landing, big wheels, rough field machine, rivals Savannah and Zenair. However quite a bit faster than the Jabiru, pushing figures up to and including 110 knots with the 100hp. Climb is quite amazing. They are also available on floats with one in the country already and apparently another on the way. There are close to 20 of them in OZ I am led to believe. If you were buying one, stretch for the wing tanks as the std 55 litres may not be enough. Economy cruise at 95 knots on 13 litres per hour or 110'ish on 18-19. Landing is quite amazing if you're not used to it. Full flap feels like barn doors have been lowered as you come over the fence as low as 45 knots. It seems to get more stable, with the slower you go. Wing is quite long and subject to a bit of turbulence on a hot day. Interesting aircraft and price to be competitive with J160 and probably less wait time.

 

I hope that helps! ClemBrown

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Clem

 

Thanks.

 

And I'd agree on the spin potential. I didn't find it pitch sensitive, but, actually quiteyaw sensitive. And will roll with rudder only (coupled) The instructor stressed this point. Besides Max flap extension speeds.

 

1st stage was set downwind (57-58). 2 stage final 50 knots and invovled nothing more than couple clicks of trim to adjust nose.But I've only put in an hour so far on it so I'm not by any means familiar yet. But, did that 2nd stage pull the height down. With a very easy, soft landing, no vices. Just kept a small amount of backpressure till rudder starting losing effect and gradually let the nosedown

 

He also got me to have power off, no flap, trim set (full up) and that gives almost no sink at all. THAT was impressive. Did get bounced around a bit by turbulance which probably be offputting to abinitio. (My son did his TIF in the same aircraft, hence my interest)

 

Then full power run, 110 knots slow cruise 85 k climbout (max flap extension speed also 57-58 knot, 1st stage

 

Stall in all stages gave a mild buffet, easily recognized.

 

I did find the angle of the seat a little bit too steep for my liking, And had to constantly look at airspeed on climbout as I didn't really believe the airspeed was correct for the angle, but, I suppose you get used to it.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

I can verify the need to be aware of the spin potential of the Allegro.

 

I was in Italy last May and was revisiting a small airfield were i had been flying on my past visits. An Allegro was turning onto finals and had drifted wide during the turn. it looked like the turn was tightened and the inside wing dropped then lifted for a second. The aircraft dropped the wing,rapidly lost hight and impacted left wing and noseabout 180deg oppersite the runway heading. aircraft was consumed by fire.

 

both occupants were the owners and had only flown about 60 yrs each on this aircraft the proceding summer and had only just started to fly this season. i was surprise at how quickly the aircraft entered the spin andhow quick 300'was lost. definatly not the manners of an ultralight.

 

if you are flying one of these i recommend some professional stall spin training. Of course what was going on in the cockpit will never be known, i.e. if the situation was agravated in some way, but i would be wary of slowing up to much in turns with this aircraft.

 

needless to say this ruined everyones day.

 

Some comments from those who have expierience on this type,please.

 

After running the accident thru mind on the trip home i more or less come to the conclusion that the pilot did not react to the situation either thru lack of training or distraction in the cockpit.

 

Ozzie

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

I was unaware of the spinpotential of the T-tail configuration as described above. Accordingly, a google search produced some interesting information at: http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/PAIS/Concept2Reality/deep_stall.htmlwith an introduction as follows:

 

Deep-Stall Avoidance

 

Background

 

As aircraft configurations continued to advance into the 1950s, designers began to recognize the potential advantages of "T-tail" configurations, wherein the horizontal tail was moved to the top of the vertical tail for enhanced efficiency and reduced weight. By arranging the vertical and horizontal tails in a T, designers could locate the horizontal tail in a relatively benign flow field. In this location, the flow downwash from the wing would not reduce the stabilizing effects of the horizontal tail at the relatively low angles of attack associated with cruise conditions. This advantage was also obtained during the landing approach, when the downwash effects became even stronger because of the deflected wing trailing-edge flaps. In addition to placing the horizontal tail in a region of less downwash, the T-tail position provides more tail length (with a swept vertical tail); thereby less tail area is used for the required tail contribution to stability. Also, the endplating effect on the vertical tail makes the vertical tail more effective and permits a reduction in vertical fin size. As a result of the increased efficiency of the horizontal and vertical tails, the surface areas could be reduced relative to a tail size for the conventional low-tail configuration and thereby result in a significant weight savings.

 

 

Wake flow patterns before and after entry into deep-stall

 

condition. Note impingement of low-energy stalled wake

 

on horizontal tail in poststall, deep-stall situation.

 

In the early 1960s, four new T-tail jet transports (the de Havilland Trident, the Boeing 727, the BAC 111, and the McDonnell Douglas DC-9) emerged within the highly competitive transport market. These aircraft shared many common configuration features in addition to the T-tail arrangement: aft-fuselage-mounted engines and all-moving (variable-incidence) horizontal tails, for instance. In Britain, the de Havilland Aircraft Company, Ltd. (who later merged with Hawker Siddeley Aviation, Ltd.), developed the Trident transport, which first flew on January 9, 1962. In the United States, Boeing brought forth its new model, the 727, which first flew on February 9, 1963. The BAC 111 first flew later that year on August 20, 1963. The Douglas DC-9 provided additional competition with a first flight that occurred a few years later, in February 1965.

 

The BAC 111 suffered a major setback during early flight testing of the prototype on October 22, 1963; the aircraft was destroyed and crew members lost their lives in a fatal accident during tests to evaluate the stall characteristics of the configuration. The accident investigation board conducted an exhaustive investigation of the aerodynamic, stability, and control characteristics of the BAC 111 and concluded that the cause of the accident was an unrecoverable deep-stall phenomenon, which was precipitated by the geometric and aerodynamic characteristics of the configuration. In particular, wind-tunnel tests indicated that at high angles of attack near and above those associated with wing stall, the low-energy wakes of the stalled wing and fuselage-mounted engine nacelles impinged on the horizontal tail and significantly reduced its stabilizing effect. Also, the low-energy wakes severely reduced the effectiveness of the horizontal tail as a longitudinal control. These characteristics manifest themselves as an insidious poststall condition in which the angle of attack of the aircraft would increase to very large values (in excess of 40∞) in response to the loss of stability, and the pilot would be unable to recover from the condition because of the loss of horizontal tail control effectiveness. During this entire sequence, the attitude of the aircraft fuselage would vary over a relatively small angular range, and the uncontrollable aircraft would descend steeply in an almost horizontal, wings-level attitude with a high rate of descent to an unsurvivable crash.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

this was the aircraft from above post.

 

If you are into these types go do some advanced spin and recovery training. ozzie

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

I know of a very experienced commercial pilot / aerobatic instructor that did some flying in the Allegro and said it felt pretty solid and he would happily push it to the edge. Nose high stalls power on are very steep, however this is normal for an aircraft with a high power-to-weight ratio.

 

(Edited to add in the high power-to-weight ratio bit after we discussed it further on the weekend) ClemBrown

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Clem

 

From my very small experience in an Allegro I'd say that may be quite a possibility. Apparently the "T" tail type designs "shields" the rudder during spin entry. I'll be questioning the instructor on such characteristics and how to overcome it before further flying.

 

Although there could be a procedure (would need to be for certification) in place. I'll post further info as it becomes known to me.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Guest DaShadow]

To Quote "From my very small experience in an Allegro I'd say that may be quite a possibility. Apparently the "T" tail type designs "shields" the rudder "

 

The words 'Apparently' and 'T Tail have problems' are from ignorent people who just like to gossip. I emailed the Allegro factory and they said no crashes in Italy that they know off (and they would know if there was a fatality) and the aircraft passed all the stall and spin testing requirements for certification in many countries.

 

To be fair you should email the importer and ask him to comment.

 

I have read the flight test on the web site and it mentions the fact that the plane climbs so steep it will hang on the prop finally rotating when it lets go with a rush but i guess this is no different than an aerobatic plane doing the same thing, lesson here is dont let the nose get vertical anyway i am told there is heaps of warning and the author alos mentions the same will happen in a 150 if you have a good engine and not much weight onboard.

 

Finally i got an newsletter from them a day ago and there is a new model available with better yaw stability (different tail design), 150mm more headroom, 200mm wider and 80 odd liters as standard. if you want a copy just let me know. Thanks Don

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Welcome Don.

 

I took your advice and emailed the manufacturer. Straight to the top! I fly in an Allegro and would like to know that my life and that of my passenger is safe.

 

Perhaps Mr. Ozzie would care to elaborate on the accident location, accident aircraft and any other information, otherwise this thread should possibly be deleted.

 

Clem.

 

This is their reply from the Fantasy Air Factory:

 

Hello Clem,

 

we have not receivedany information aboutaccident in Italy.

 

Cannot understand how someone can pronounce such conlusions.....

 

Having proffesional spin training before flying Allegro...it is just nonsense...

 

I will not express anything more right now.

 

In any case, Allegro typewasproffesionally test flown (I do not mean now standard test flights of each piece by our test pilot) in theCzech Republic according to JAR-VLA and ASTM standards regulationsand the test flight is officiallypart of the certification. Allegro meet all the standards.

 

Kind regards,

 

Josef

 

 

[Admin]

Guys - I think we need to take this thread as somewhat hearsay about any accident that may have happened in Italy.

 

One could build a matrix on three variables:

 

1. We all know that every aircraft has different handling characteristics

 

2. Every Pilot has different flying characteristics

 

3. Every Pilot has a different degree of experience

 

For example I could say that I personally feel that the CTsw is hard to land but other CT Pilots say it is easy to land - that all comes down to the hrs in type, the pilots flying capabilities and most importantly two Pilots don't fly the exact same way. The distributer of the CT's here has always said that my old CT flew totally different then their own and performed much faster and again differently.

 

BUT, what I will say is that if an Allegro did crash and was fatal to the occupants then the manufacturer WOULD have been informed.

 

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

We should also add to the matrix variables:

 

4. Weather and wind conditions.

 

Cheers

 

Ken.

 

 

[Guest ozzie]

Clem,

 

Cassoni was the location. I think about the 10th April.

 

We left the airstrip immediatley as my friend (an instructor)had children with him. The accident happenedoff the other end of the 900mtr strip.I recieved the photo that was posted above after i came home so can assume that it is the right aircraft.I never saw this aircraft up close as they had been away for the entire day.

 

The man from the factory is right these aircraft are tested by professionals and the standard of flight training is very high there. (reads expensive). i have no issues with these aircraft or to Josef.

 

I just hope details have not been lost in the translation.

 

Now just to point out that these (any) aircraft are certified with a professional test pilot, who knows just how to extract the best performance and figures for a given situation. The average pilotmay not be able to fly the (his)aircraft the same as the testing situations.

 

As for spin training.Good further self education forANY pilot.

 

Now with all this talk of spins and such i think i'll start my two week break this Saturday and stroll over to Luskintyre and have Lunch with the "Tigers".

 

Moderator feel free to delete thread at Clems request.

 

ozzie

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

Hmmm.... I'm dumbfounded as to how the factory would not know about two people that died in one of it's aircraft and even the Italian equivalent of the CAA / CASA doesn't know about it.

 

I shall keep digging!

 

I have a keen interest in stats, crashes, reports, causes of, etc, etc and particularly because this is an aircraft that I have flown in on previous occasions I am most interested.

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Enough to say that the following link details two fatalities in an Allegro:

 

http://www.slackdavis.com/news_article.php/news_id/argval/1416/argname/back_link/argval/index

 

Regards

 

Ken

 

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<DIV ="mediumtitle">Two dead in flight training crash

 

Article published Aug 8, 2005

 

Two people including a WFMY-TV news anchor in the 1980s died in a plane crash in Brunswick County, N.C., on Sunday. WFMY-TV is based in Greensboro, N.C.

 

Robert James Swanson, a certified instructor pilot from Southport, and his student, John Nesbit of Carolina Beach, were flying aboard a New Sport Aircraft Allegro when the plane crashed about 20 miles from the airfield, according to the Brunswick County Sheriff's Department.

 

The reason for the crash is unclear. The plane was a new, single-engine, two-seat aircraft, according to officials.

 

The New Sport planes are not designed for long-distance travel, but primarily for sport flying or training, said Howie Franklin, director of the Brunswick County Airport.

 

Nesbit anchored WFMY's Good Morning Show with Lee Kinard in the 1980's, according to WFMY's Web site.

 

He was also on WFMY in the 1970s and 1980s on programs including "The Old Rebel Show" and "Sandra and Friends."

 

Swanson was the president of the Experimental Aviation Association's 939th Chapter in South Port and was a volunteer for the EAA Young Eagles program, which allows interested youths to fly in general aviation airplanes with experienced pilots.

 

"He's been involved in aviation since his 20s," Franklin said. "This is a very experienced pilot."

 

The Sheriff's Department was alerted to the missing plane about 5 p.m. Sunday. The plane was located about an hour later after several planes were sent out to search for it.

 

The Federal Aviation Administration will be on the scene today to investigate.

 

Copyright © 2005

 

The News & Record

 

and Landmark Communications, Inc.</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE> Ken deVos

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

I have read recently that reservations are also held about thelow winged T-tail Piper PA-38 Tomahawk in the GA fraternity which presumably would have an even greater shielding of its tail during a stall/spin than the high wing Allegro.

 

Ken deVos

 

 

[Guest Fred Bear]

The PA-38 has been around for a long time and done one hell of a lot of hours and people have treated them very nastily. In fact Ken, the Gentleman that you know who owns a PA38 (have a think about who) has flown his inverted on the odd occasion and it has something like 7,000 hours on it...!

 

As much as your report talks of an Allegro crashing, north Carolina is a long way from Cassoni Italy!

 

 

[Guest Ken deVos]

Hi Clem

 

I believe I know of the gentleman to whom you allude.

 

If this is so, though I'm unaware of the full extent of his flying experience and endorsements, then I would be interested to hear his views on the stall/spin and general handling characteristics of the Tomahawk and with comparison to other aircraft designs.

 

No doubt he would also be able to offer comment on the Allegro.

 

Cheers

 

Ken.

 

 

[Wilfred]

Aircraft have different reputations because they are different; when we choose to fly them, we must be familiar with their individual traits.

 

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According to the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association Air Safety Foundation, which published a Safety Highlight report on the Piper Tomahawk, the Piper Tomahawk has a one-third lower accident rate per flying hour than the comparable Cessna 150/152 series of two-place benchmark trainers. However, the Tomahawk has a higher rate of fatal spin accidents per flying hour. With proper training and an understanding of the aircraft's more advanced flying characteristics, these problems can easily be avoided.<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

 

An early Airworthiness Directive which added an additional pair of stall strips to the wing's inboard leading edge improved the stall/spin characteristics and there has been a dramatic reduction in spin-related accidents throughout the entire fleet as a result.Allthough this could be due to greater awareness of the aircraft characteristics

 

Because of its originally aggressive 'wing drop' spin entry and spinning characteristics, the PA-38 earned the nickname "Traumahawk" from some pilots and instructors.

 

The Tomahawk has a reputation for being "aggressive" in a stall and for spinning readily if yaw is introduced at the right time. It also has a tendency to drop a wing in the stall -- and if the pilot mishandles the rudder, elevator, or ailerons, a spin may rapidly develop. None of this is news. When the PA-38 was introduced, it was clear that this aircraft required a different approach from that applied to the relatively docile Cessnas. Pilots who fail to understand that the PA-38 handles much differently in the stall and spin regime may be surprised by the aircraft's response.

 

There were a few instances in which the aircraft may have been mishandled, and we believe that the solution is in understanding the Tomahawk's characteristics clearly and providing ample altitude. The Tomahawk typically may take longer to recover from a developed spin than would a Cessna. The basic spin recovery method of opposite rudder, nosedown elevator, and neutral ailerons is recommended, but there was a revision to the pilot's operating handbook that is important to note. According to the POH, "The immediate effect of applying normal recovery controls may be an appreciable steepening of the nosedown attitude and an increase in the rate of spin rotation. This characteristic indicates that the aircraft is recovering from the spin, and it is essential to maintain full antispin rudder and to continue to move the control wheel forward and maintain it fully forward until the spin stops."

 

Some Tomahawk critics contend that the aircraft should not be stalled or spun. After looking at hundreds of accidents involving both the PA-38 and comparable aircraft, we note that some caveats are in order. No aircraft should be stalled or spun at low altitude, but we would extend the margins a bit in a PA-38. Before going solo, pilots should check out with an instructor who has considerable spin experience in the PA-38 and should have spins demonstrated to them, if circumstances permit, in strict accordance with the POH. In conducting our review, we spoke to several Tomahawk instructors and a large flight school that had years of PA-38 experience. They had conducted literally thousands of successful spin entries and recoveries. The key point is that pilots must not expect this aircraft to behave similarly to other trainers. It has its own personality and procedures to follow; ignore them at your risk. Aircraft have different reputations because they are different; when we choose to fly them, we must be familiar with their traits.