Training Aircraft

[Guest Guest]

Hey,

 

Still anxiously getting myself to start (hopefully) RAA style-Training!

 

I have a question regarding training aircraft; Which is the best?

 

Tecnam P92 Echo, FlySynthesis Texan TC, LightWing Sport 2000

 

(Northern NSW/South-East Queensland will be the area to train)

 

Can anyone shed some light on each of the aircraft, their Pros and Cons from a Training/experience perspective?

 

I'm particulary interested in the Texan and LightWing,

 

Thanks!

 

And Merry Christmas too!

 

 

[Admin]

Camo,

 

I have flown the Tecnam and found it a very forgiving and fantastic training aircraft. Whilst it may have been my flying but it did drop a wing slightly in a stall but coming in on final it was very responsive to what I wanted it to do - as a trainer a definate YES

 

The Texan or Lightwing I am unsure of as I have not flown either of them but for my 20c worth.....

 

The Texan I believe has a very low MTOW so you may run into problems there plus it is a low wing therefor having a totally different ground effect to a high wing but if you are going to mostly fly low wings then yes it could be a consideration but if high wings are what you will mostly fly then rule the Texan out. - qualification, as I said I have never flown a Texan and I am only going by what I have read which could have been biased.

 

The lightwing has been around for a long time and I am told is similiar to a Gazelle which in my opinion IS the best training aircraft there is/was. So, if this is true then it would be a good training aircraft and again I have never flown one and I am only going on heresay.

 

Picking the right aircraft that suits your learning style may be a case of trying them all and pick the one that you feel most comfortable in whilst you learn and whilst it may be a little bit more costly you are still gaining the experience of different aircraft which adds to your learning experience - hope this helps

 

 

[River]

Ok ‘team’, I’ll throw my $1’s worth into the training ring too…

 

Yes, the Tecnam is a very good training ship indeed. Throw me money and I'll buy one tomorrow

 

Though, and this opinion may be a little biased as I support aussie designed and made aircraft but the Howard Hughes (Howie)

 

LightWing Sport 2000 is a damm good training aircraft. It’s overall quite a rugged and tough fabric and steel designed aircraft which fly’s and handles generally speaking as a recreational aircraft should. It’ll drop a wing in the stall. Though it’s a somewhat gentle drop and even then you sometimes can’t get the wing to drop. Stalling is predicable and the aircraft can be put close to a spin or spiral dive to demonstrate recovery procedures and it does have enough drag to teach you the associated problems and the aircraft has flaps too.

 

About the only area that I would draw attention too is the Sport2000 models front undercarriage, caution here as I believe the front gear is a ‘little fragile’ and requires flying work to unsure you don’t land heavy on the front gear.

 

It you were to train out of say, Ballina with Howie’s operation (LightWing) you would have the advantage of further airfield choices to fly to when training of Evans Head, Lismore, Casino plus beach areas too… Makes for pleasant flying with variety and choice.

 

There's a number of other aircraft too that would make for excellent training aircraft, the Drifter and Fisher are two other aircraft that I believe have training operations in your area too.

 

yours in recreational aviation,

 

 

[pylon500]

With 1600 odd hours in the LightWing, I guess I'm biased, but for all round training it's probably the best place to start. From a taildragger LightWing you can go and fly most of the earlier designs around and when you get into a quicker tri gear machine, it all falls into place very quickly.Start with a quick tri gear machine, and you'll find yourself having to do a lot of 'endorsing' to be able to fly any of the affordable planes on the RA-Aus register.Arthur.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

I guess LightWing it is then ;), Is anyone aware of the aircraft 'Paradise Flight Centre' use? (Any Taildraggers?)

 

Also are there any images of the aircraft, in general, More specifically the cockpit etc.. as there are very little images of the aircraft on the LightWing website and throughout the web!

 

 

[River]

Paradise Flight Centre is the flight training school of the company that designed, manufactured and sells the LightWing at

 

Ballina NSW...

 

Their web address is; http://www.lightwing.com.au/Paradise.htmlwith the main web address of;http://www.lightwing.com.au/and you can phone them on (02) 6686 8658.

 

There are some LightWing photos shown at the site but a Google search on LightWing should give you some further photos, etc.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Guest TOSGcentral]

I support Arthur's views and would definitely go taildragger Lightwing and then have a few rides in the nosewheel version.

 

Bear in mind RAAus training is going to get complicated. We already have a restriction on nosewheel trained pilots that requires further training to be tailwheel endorsed.

 

Think of it in terms of cars. Get a manual license and you can drive any car. Take the test in an auto and you have to take a second test in a manual or are stuck on autos. As Arthur states - most affordable ultralights are taildraggers.

 

Now RAAus is talking of splitting training again into low speed/high speed. Get in quick before it happens and the Lightwing is nicely positioned in the middle. There is enough about it to be in touch with the low end and an optioned up one with reflex flaps etc will give good systems training.

 

More schools should have Lightwings. But I guess Howie was too slow off the mark with 101.55 and the guys at Skyfox and Jabiru were quite predatory with their marketing - which worked very well, but at the Lightwing's expense!

 

I would have used Lightwings in my own school but got more satisfaction out of using the very challenging Thruster as a basic trainer!

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Ok, I'll ring them today, Thanks :).

 

 

[River]

G’day Tony, your points on the LightWing are well taken.

 

I’ve often wondered as to why Howie has not brought out a ‘Mark 2’ version of the LightWing for to-day’s training/recreational market. The basic LightWing has the makings of a good new robust ship with a number of mods (My personal views only).

 

I’d upgrade the brakes from those questionable outer drum band mechanical versions to hydraulic disks with toe activated instead of the sliding heel version currently in use.

 

Move the damm engine oil tank from inside the passenger area to where it should be in the engine bay. Hot oil in the pilot/passenger area, not a good mix.

 

Have pilot and co-pilot/passenger flap controls.

 

There are some airframe/airflow mods that would allow for less drag and improved performance.

 

Modify the flight control system to have dual control sticks.

 

On the tri-cycle version there is 'something' that does not feel right with the undercarriage layout, just can't put my finger on it but when one compares the undercarriage with that of the Skyfox gazelle's tri-cycle undercarriage, the Gazelle feels, tracks and rides with a higher degree of err... robustness and feel for the want of a better description.

 

Personally I’d stay with the taildragger version but it appears market forces/costs have pushed most training schools to the Tri-cycle gear version. Of-course this will require the usual testing, etc, etc and a re-certification and but like the current LightWing, it should be around for a very long time – and

 

it’s easily repairable with day-to-day off the shelf materials and know-how…

 

What's the thought on others who have flown or own/owned a LightWing.

 

Cheers,

 

 

[Guest Guest]

Ok gave them a call ;), They arn't open until the 3rd or 4th of Jan and Unfortunately only have the nosewheel tri-cycle gear {Although I didn't talk to the CFI Directly so maybe they can work something out}

 

:).

 

 

[pylon500]

G'Day Camo, Arthur here,Looking at your first post you say you want to train in the Northern NSW/ South Queensland area?Is this where you is at, or just where you were going to be for the christmas break?(Your member profile does not give a location!)There are some Lightwings in the Sydney area if you reside here, and they're all taildraggers!E-mail me,Arthur.

 

 

[Guest Guest]

No, this is where I reside. :)

 

Thanks anyway!

 

 

[Guest Sabre]

HI Cammo,

 

I'm new to this forum and flying as a whole but I'm learning on a Texan TC. I'm about 115kg and my instructor is about 90 - 100 kgs and the Texan will cruise around 100kts all day. I don't have much to compare with but I did do a trial flight in a Storch (Flyingsynthesis) and it was cramped and uncomfortable.

 

Just a footnote. I did make some inquiries about learning to fly at a school north of Brisbane and was told to try PPL training becuse of my size they had Jabs and Skyfoxes......go figure....

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

I know the school. I'm near marginal in weight myself (98kg). It would appear they do try to move students direct to PPL if possible. I was told to also during preflight for a checkflight.

 

Minimum room is something just have to put up with unless flying tandem, and I don't think there are any tandem RAA aircraft for training as yet for that weight.

 

 

[greggf]

After inspecting the Texan, and flying the SportStar at Narromine, I'm really tossing up between the two. Then, just to confuse things, there is the German offering - the Polaris, also VERY nice and equipped with fowler flaps.

 

What was that thing on Catalyst the other night about too much choice causing stress.

 

Gregg

 

 

[Admin]

Come on Gregg, I'm sure you would prefer that "other" German one

 

 

[Ultralights]

hahaaha i agree with the choice thing, its taken me Months to cut my choice down to the Savannah only to discover there are yet More choices within the same aircraft type, though i am only buying for personal use and not "for profit or reward"

 

 

[River]

After inspecting the Texan, and flying the SportStar at Narromine, I'm really tossing up between the two. Then, just to confuse things, there is the German offering - the Polaris, also VERY nice and equipped with fowler flaps.What was that thing on Catalyst the other night about too much choice causing stress.

 

Gregg

G'day Gregg, yes saw that program too... Choice... Argggg! How true

 

Regarding the Polaris, I take it you are referring to the B7F FK-14B model.

 

There is quite a good review/write-up on this model in the European aviation magazine, Today'sPilot. Issue 38 starting on page 90.

 

By all accounts this is one fine recreational aircraft and the review model also had a balistic parachute system built-in too. The performance figures were quite amazing with a crusie speed of some 143 kts, Vne 156 kts, Roc 1500 ft/m and a stall speed of 34 kts! And this form a Rotax 912s 100hp engine.

 

About the only points that I pondered about was,

 

(1) Being a low wing aircraft, sitting under the wing for shade is not easily possible (Australian sun).

 

(2) The engine cooling and the air intakes appeared quite small. Again referring to ourhotter weather here from the origins back in Germany.

 

(3) The size of the main wheels may be a little small for our AU conditions where many an airstrip is somewhat rougher than our european friends airfields.

 

All these items can be reasonably easily modified (by the manufacture) if they were to introduce the aircraft to AU, though. If you are interested in reading the review and don't have access to the magazine, let me know and I'll run-up a PDF file of the pages or what ever format you desire and email it to you.

 

Cheers,

 

Rodger

 

 

[Guest danda]

Hi Camo for what its worth I did my training in a Tecnam both low wing and highwing great plain and loved it.

 

However they are so easy to fly I believe it leaves you some what lacking in those finer skills something I became very aware of when I went for my tail drager indorsement.

 

Don

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Hi Camo for what its worth I did my training in a Tecnam both low wing and highwing great plain and loved it. However they are so easy to fly I believe it leaves you some what lacking in those finer skills something I became very aware of when I went for my tail drager indorsement.

 

Don

See The changes in training aircraft at flying schools to plastic fantastic nose wheel types appears to be creating a problem for those that wish to have taildragger endorsement or wish to own such types.

 

There is a problem with training on such types if one wishes to fly a minimalist ultralight. Just ask Tony on that one re: Thrusters, Drifters and such high drag types.

 

There is not much difference between climbout and stall in these types. Lose power, must get nose down much faster than the slippery ones, before momentum is lost.

 

I still reckon it's best to train on minimalist types first. Some may disagree with that, but that's fine each to their own.

 

Micgrace

 

 

[Guest sypkens]

Hi River,

 

Have you got a website or a picture of the Polaris (low wing) you mentioned? Had a look on Google but only got references to the amphibian Polaris which I doubt will do 143 knots or am I wrong??

 

 

[River]

Hi River,

 

Have you got a website or a picture of the Polaris (low wing)

 

you mentioned? Had a look on Google but only got references to the

 

amphibian Polaris which I doubt will do 143 knots or am I wrong??

This is the company's home page http://www.fk-lightplanes.com/

 

and this is the Polaris page http://www.fk-lightplanes.com/html/fk_14_polaris.html

 

Cheers, Rodger

 

 

[pylon500]

Had a look at the Polaris at Narromine, some very nice touches.On closer inspection there is some inovative construction methods in use, in that it's not ALL plastic!

 

All the control surfaces are actually metal structures covered with fabric, while the tail and sections of the wings are fully covered in metal.Looking at the manufacturers site,I was suprised to see that they can supply the Polaris, and other models as taildraggers!This may seem a brave move, but the company has been running since the 60's when taildraggers were the norm.The taildragger version of the Polaris is definately sexy!!

 

Arthur.

 

 

 

[pylon500]

Of course the irony here is that for your $130k, you could buy a second hand Piper Arrow that will do 130 knots+, with full IFR, retractable, auto-pilot, four seats and can be parked outside without melting!But we still like our Ultralights?Had a chat to the guy with the Polaris at Narromine and he plans on being the agent for them for around $150k.C'mon Howie, churn out more Lightwings and maybe some Speeds for the long distance boys!

 

Buy Australian!

 

Arthur.

 

 

[Guest micgrace]

Of course the irony here is that for your $130k, you could buy a second hand Piper Arrow that will do 130 knots+, with full IFR, retractable, auto-pilot, four seats and can be parked outside without melting! But we still like our Ultralights?Had a chat to the guy with the Polaris at Narromine and he plans on being the agent for them for around $150k.C'mon Howie, churn out more Lightwings and maybe some Speeds for the long distance boys!Buy Australian!

Arthur.

I really don't know why most have shied off Lightwings, I always considered them robust enough (apart from nosewheel). and very adaptable to whatever configuration you like (within reason)

 

I know of 2 older accidents that could have been very serious if not for the construction method. Both airplanes were back in service within a week, and pilots suffered nil injury. 1 wasdisintergration of prop on takeoff the other u/c failure, crash into fence.

 

Perhaps the fact of tube and fabric and partial aluminium and not composite puts them off.

 

Micgrace