Just Landed

[Guest TFC]

Hi All,

 

I saw this site while I was doing a little research on different 3 axis aircraft. I currently fly a trike and am looking at 3-axis now. I have been considering a Jabiru, and checking out the discussions. Alot to consider on different aircraft to say the least.

 

Anyway it looks like a great site, with alot of usefull information and resouces.

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Welcome Dave

 

I too started the same way as you, flying an Airborne Edge X 582 Streak wing for a number of years before getting endorsed on a jabiru J160. I then bought a second hand J230. SO with the trike and the J230 I have the best of both worlds, Summerdays in a trike just tootling around is fantastic. Adelaide to Brisbane in a day, 1 stop only, with time to spare in the 230 equally fantastic.

 

That all said, when you choose to do the 3 axis training I think that whatever aircraft you learn in will probably be what you then look to. Its for that reason that the Jabiru's and Technams are as popular as they are.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Thanks Andy,

 

I was thinking the same as you. Love trike flying, but the cold is hard to deal with so I am now looking forward for summer.

 

The J230 is the aircraft that is looking fairly good for me. I can't just fly anything, as I'm in a wheelchair and need something that is reasonably do-able for getting in, most aircraft are not suitable, plus I want something that can carry my chair and other gear, and it needs to do atleast 100kt. Not much to ask for!!

 

What do you think of the J230?

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Dave

 

I like the 230. to me the benefits are:-

 

1) Australian built, the $ stay here

 

2) 120kt cruise is up there in the aircraft we can fly. There are faster, but as with all aviation there are compromises.

 

3) Aircraft is certified by the manufacturer for a MTOW of 700kgs, we cant, under RAAus, use that full700Kg's but its nice to know its there

 

4) 6hr duration is under most circumstances going to exceed ones bladder duration!

 

5) They are common and as such most that is problematic has already been found and spoken about in great detail

 

6) Flying schools love the Jabiru's. You have to ask yourself why. Reality is that what is good for them is probably also good for you

 

7) the 230 is called the aircraft version of the stationwagon theres plenty of room in the back.

 

Now the downsides for you that I could see

 

1) while theres plenty of room in the back, certainly enough for a wheelchair, I don't know how you would get it in by yourself, or shut the rear door. Doors on Jabiru's are a bit agricultural and shutting them needs to be done from directly in front of the door.

 

2) Do you have any leg movement? steering on the ground and rudder control are done via pedals. I haven't ever seen any conversion to allow for paraplegics etc. Though if you fly trikes then the same issue has been dealt with...

 

3) The front doors are tight. I'm a big guy (6ft and 115kgs) and I find it awkward getting in and out so would suggest that this is definitely something to test out.

 

4) Like most Aircraft fuel is added via the refuel point on the top of the wing. That requires a step ladder and a lot of refuelers will not refuel the plane for you. I've heard its to do with determining when full is full and ensuring the filler caps are properley closed, both being pilot responsibilities.

 

5) Preflights do require some activities from higher up than a seated position. For example the oil dip stick sits on the top of the engine and is accessed via a door on the top engine cowl.

 

I dont mean to sound negative and hope it doesnt come across that way, just want you to be aware of these things. To a certain extent trikes are the same and yet youve managed that so perhaps the same approach will work fine.

 

Hope it works out for you.

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Thanks Andy,

 

I appreciate you being upfront and giving me the good and not so good points of the aircraft.

 

As with my trike I can't get in or out by myself and need assistance so the Jab is not that much different. As with checks and maintenance I get my helper to do those things for me, so most of the down sides can be overcome.

 

I designed most of the mods for my trike, so hand controls for the foot peddles shouldn't be too hard to work out. The problem there is how much force would I need to use to move a peddle? I'm a quadriplegic so my strength is limited, but with a lever arrangement, I should be able to make it fairly light.

 

Like you,I'm six four, so room in the front will be an issue. Could always cut the legs off as they don't do much but they do look good, so maybe I'll keep them!!! i will have to consider this though.

 

I haven't flown in one as yet, but have checked them out at other airfields. They appear to be the most suited for me, but you never know until yu fly it.

 

There is a guy in Ballerat that has a 230 at his school, Im looking at arranging a TIF shortly.

 

Thanks again for your feedback, much appreciated.

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Dave

 

Rudder pedals are light in the air, however on the ground require a bit of force, The tighter the turn the more the effort required. In the air Id suggest that hand force equal to holding 200-300grams arms extended in front of you is all that it would take. ON the ground however somewhere between 1kg and 10kgs would be par for course and Id suggest that minimum acceptable would be about the 7kg mark to allow for most circumstances. (All these of course being educated guesses at the moment)

 

I supose that if you could use lefthand for rudder via whatever mechanism you come up with, you could then use your right hand for the remining 2 axies.

 

The problems remaining would be to look at flap switches and any other control that would be needed at the same time that rudder input and pitch and roll input is needed. Flap and throttle come to mind.

 

In some ways if you could emulate a PC joystick that has the stick rotate for rudder you could cover all axies in the same hand. Trick would be to gear it in such a way that you strength issue isnt a limiting factor. That then leaves your left hand for throttle and flap etc. With regard to strength, if you quad and can handle a trike wing then I suspect you'll have all the stregth you need unless that too was done through force multipliers, though then I would suspect you wouldnt have the range of motion needed.

 

Sounds like an interesting project and most certainly one that would be deserving of a write up in the RAA mag and others as an ispiration. Most find it difficult enough to learn without having to cope with Quadriplegia. Yesterday I thought it would be difficult for you and thought then that you would be suffering from paraplegia.

 

Did you learn to fly trikes at Yarrawonga?

 

Andy

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Hi Andy,

 

Its sound like when in the air there would be no issue with the rudder, I figured it would be alot harder on the ground as its linked to the nose wheel. I would need a lever arrangement to reduce the required force a fair bit, I'd say. I was thinking of using my left hand as you mentioned to operate the peddle, and incorporate the throttle on the same lever, so I don't need to take my hand off it. On my first go at the ground steering on the trike, I had a lever arrangement that went down to the forks. To steer I would push the lever back and forth. It was difficult as it required alot of force when turning, plus it was difficult to hold the wing with one hand and try and steer the front wheel. It didn't work too well when the wind came up, and I got into a couple of fun situations that way. So I changed it when I upgraded to my XT912, with power steering. I use a suck/puff device that operates an electric actuator connected to the front forks and I can steer the nosewheel just by sucking or puffing. I can steer as good as somene with legs and it allows me to have both hands on the wing, where if it is a bit windy I can handle the wing OK now. Having said that I would like to avoid usig that type of modification if possible as it means more can go wrong, not that I have had any problems with it.

 

Would you need more or less force to push the peddles compared to pushing the forks on a trike?

 

Regarding the flaps, do you need to just set these once when on approach or do you need to periodically adjust these when in cricuit? I actually hadn't given it much thught until now. Don't have them on the trike!!! I could always rig up a switch on the hand control or somethng similar. Is it a toggle switch or knob for the flaps?

 

all these things make it a bit of a challenge to fly, plus expensive as R&D isn't cheap, but for me its just part of the process. As I don't have finger finction and limited arm function there isn't much I can do without having to make some changes. There is a solution to every problem, it just depends how much effort you want to put in to find that solution. I think the mods for a 3-axis will be eaier than the trike. Better not speak too soon though.

 

I learnt to fly in Bright with Eagle School back in 2006. Its great flying around there. I live in Melbourne but have the trike hangered in Benalla, so I love to get over to the mountains around Bright and enjoy the scenery. Have you been up in that area?

 

Dave

 

 

[Deskpilot]

Hi Dave, I can't help you with this topic but I'd like you to know that I have the greatest respect for you and all others in a similar predicament. Never give up, never say die. Do your best and enjoy what life throws at you. Good onya.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

Hi Dave

 

I don't know if you are aware of them but in the UK there is an organisation call ed the British Disabled Flying Association who might be able to provide some advice. Checkout

 

http://www.bdfa.net/

 

All the best

 

John

 

 

[eastmeg2]

Dave,

 

Welcome to the Rec Flyers forum.

 

One hting that you may have to your advantage when going to 3 axis is that you might be able to arrange the controls similar to what you currently have in your trike, apart from the control bar.

 

Cheers,

 

Glen

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

Welcome Dave,

 

Have you read the "Women pilots conference" thread yet? Theres mention of a wheelchair driving Sam Baily looking to modify a helicopter to fly himself. www.sambailey.com.au

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

Dave

 

Personally I think the force required on the trike pedals is less than that required in the jabiru on the ground, however, and perhaps as the obvious reason, the trike pedals have a lot more movement available that the jabiru ones, that is trikes need less force but have a much longer throw.

 

With regard to flap, I cant speak for everyone, however with me generally I dont just set and forget, rather it goes out in stages, which probably wouldnt be that much of an issue in the air, however as soon as I can after landing, ie just after nosewheel come down I generally try to retract flap (a LH operation) , while braking (a RH operation) using pedals to ensure I dont go somewhere I didnt intend to. My rationale being that with the flaps away the difference between flying speed and the hi speed ground run that Im engaged in will get bigger and therefore I dont end up flying with a wind gust etc when I didnt intend to. Indeed Ive often thought that evolution of a 3rd hand would be useful at that phase of the landing process.

 

The flap is electrically driven and controlled via a DPDT center rocker switch down for deploy and up for retract. A very simple arrangement.

 

I suspect if you were to mount a flap actuator switch on the stick you would want a lock out switch elsewhere, or a switch that can be positively locked in the center / neutral position. Last thing you want to do is deploy flap by accident when well outside the white arc (safe flap deployment arc) on your ASI. If that occurs it can generate forces on the flap system that the manufacturer never intended. Flying in an asymetric circumstance, because 1 side chose to depart at 125kts would either be deathly frightening... or just deathly

 

No matter what you come up with you should never be in the position where you cant go back to controling the 3 axies if a sudden change dictates that is essential. For me, I can always choose to stop braking and resume Aileron / elevator coontrol if needed.

 

I havent flown in the areas you talked of, however have met the Yarrawonga instructors at last years Narromine event. I pressumed they were closest to the airfield you operate from.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

 

[cazza]

Welcome to the forum TFC. I can't help with any suggestions on mods, but I fly a J160 and she has more room in the front than the J230, but not as much 'grunt'. I also have a few hours on a Trike which is great fun but not for winter.

 

CAzza

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Hi High Plains Drifter,

 

I saw the site some time ago, quite impressive. If they get the mods sorted out it will be a great achievement.

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest TFC]

hi john, I havn't seen that site, I will check it out.

 

thanks Dave

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Andy,

 

Thanks for the info. Good point about the flaps, i will look at something that can't be accidentially activated. I have made arrangements to go for a fly in a J230 next week, so I will be able to have a descent look at the set-up then and try things out. You've given me some food for thought on a number of items, which is greatly appreciated.

 

i haven't made it to naromine as yet, hopefully I will get to the next one. heard its pretty good.

 

Dave

 

 

[Guest TFC]

Hi Cazza, a few people have suggested the J160 is a bit more comfortable as its bigger in the front. I want to get somwthing that has good carrying capacity so I can get my wheelchair in and some luggage for trips, so the 230 appears to be the best from what I've seen. Also I like the extra grunt, never know when you need it.

 

I know what you mean about flying a trike in winter, I tend to stay indoors at this time of year as its too cold. Thats the other thing about the Jab, it has a heater!!

 

Cheers

 

Dave