GPS training

[Ultralights]

Having just completed my instructor rating, and spending the last 2 days doing long navs over unfamiliar territory, i ask the question about using VOR and NDBs in recreational aircraft, to aid navigation obviously, this is when i found out the the VOR and NDB system will slowly be phased out, as each transmitter becomes unserviceable, they will not be replaced, but their published approaches will be replaced with GPS precision approaches.

 

now it seams to me that GPS will soon become a primary navaid in the GA world, .... shouldn't navigation by GPS be tough in nav training? and not to be used as "backup" only??

 

the main reason i begun to question this, is a new technam arrived at Nerrandera over the 2 weeks i was there without a compass!

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day Ultralights,

 

Congrats on the rating. It's a good question about GPS training - it's a bit like saying to GA pilots of old "you have to navigate without using the NDB, VOR or DME that's on the panel in front of you.".

 

To be specific however most GPS approaches are non-precision approaches. Our IFR brethren can explain why better than I can but I understand it to be about whether there is vertical guidance or not and in most cases there isn't.

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest airsick]

the main reason i begun to question this, is a new technam arrived at Nerrandera over the 2 weeks i was there without a compass!

Sorry to hijack your thread but I raised my eyebrows when I read this. Under CAO 20.18 it specifies the instruments required for flight under VFR as:

 

The flight and navigational instruments required for flights under the Visual Flight Rules are:

 

 

 

 

 



(a) an airspeed indicating system; and

 

 

 

 

 



(b) an altimeter, with a readily adjustable pressure datum setting scale graduated in millibars; and

 

 

 

 

 



© (i) a direct reading magnetic compass; or

 

 

 

 

 



(ii) a remote indicating compass and a standby direct reading magnetic compass; and

 

 

 

 

 



(d) an accurate timepiece indicating the time in hours, minutes and seconds. This may be carried on the person of the pilot or navigator.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So, how was the aircraft delivered? If it was flown then it seems to me that it was an illegal flight. Add to this what if the GPS failed? What was the fallback?

 

 

 

 

 





 

 

 

 

 



I can't see in CAO 95.55 where it exempts this requirement, if RAA aircraft are exempt then where does it say so?

 

 

 

 

 





 

 

 

 

 



Anyway,

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest J430]

Mike..... there is not much guidance on an NDB in any case let alone Vertical:laugh:

 

GPS is becoming the standard. For example, if you were conducting "VFR on Top" without a reference to ground navigation you would have to among other things, have a TSO'd nav system and an IFR aircrafat. Now this meant a VOR or ADF receiver or a TSO 129 GPS for example. Even though your G296 will do the job just fine.

 

For IFR Ops if you are going to arrive at your destination and have to descend below the LSALT you need to have something else as well as a TSO 129 GPS. For example an ADF (and have fuel for the alternate that has the NDB), as time has gone by, the latest TSO 146 GPS have been approved as a sole source of navigation and now you do not need to carry outdated and slowly disappearing technology.

 

An example of the GNS 530 which is a TSO 129 GPS

 

 

The new GNS 530W is TSO 146 and if we ever get the WAAS here in Oz it will allow ILS type approaches to most regional airports.

 

I am sure there are a few others on the forum who can explain it better but there ya go!

 

Now back to VFR training, I do believe that map and compass should be taught, however just as pointed out earlier it is the ADF of the future.

 

J:thumb_up:

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day J,

 

I was using the term "precision" and by default "non-precision" in the technical way set out by CASA and Airservices.

 

This well known approach is a non-precision approach:

 

http://www.airservices.gov.au/publications/current/dap/LHRGN02-101.pdf

 

As far as I'm aware all current GPS approaches in Australia are non-precision as opposed to this (from October 29 last year):

 

First precision GPS approach guides aircraft into remote Norwegian airport

 

By David Learmount

 

 

 

The world's only operational global navigation satelllite system (GNSS) precision approach guided its first passenger-carrying aircraft to touchdown on 29 October at a remote airport in Norway.

 

 

 

A Bombardier Dash 8-100 of SAS subsidiary Wideroe carried out the inaugural approach to runway 04 at Brønnøysund, landing at 10:40 local time in fair weather.

 

 

 

Known as SCAT-1 (special category one), the system is a differential GNSS precision approach with ground-based augmentation.

 

 

 

Already approved by the Norwegian Civil Aviation Authority and certificated by the European Aviation Safety Agency, the system will, over the next few years, be installed at 24 of Norway's local airports where terrain or steep glideslopes make the use of instrument landing systems (ILS) impossible, says Steinar Hamar, the SCAT-1 progamme manager at Norwegian airports operator Avinor. Many of these are "stolports" with 800m runways.

 

 

 

Navigation manager at Wideroe Jens Gjerlev says that the impetus to improve approach safety became irresistible following the controlled flight into terrain accident to a Wideroe Dash 7 on approach to Brønnøysund in May 1988 that killed all 36 on board.

 

 

 

Work to develop a GNSS-based precision approach system began in 1997. Research, trials and winning institutional approval took far longer than anticipated, says Gjerlev.

 

 

 

########

 

 

 

Back to the point: Rob made a comment about GPS precision approaches. RAA will never use GPS precision approaches in our lifetime, in all likelihood.

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

Mike

 

 

 

[Yenn]

ADF does have one saving grace, even if all the aviation stations are closed down we still have MF radio stations transmitting and their locations are shown in ERSA so we can use them when all else fails.

 

I have probably used VOR and ADF more than GPS and I never had any difficulty locating myself, but the GPS I use nowadays is a basic Garmin 12XL, with no moving map. Very nice to use as a distance and bearing from wherever to tell others your location, lets you keep the eyes out of the cockpit as it is far quicker to read off the numbers, than scale them off the map.

 

 

[Tony]

Yes, AND please DO NOT RELY on height reading which the cheap (non differential system) GPS would give you.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

 

Let me understand this.. the Tecnam was delivered WITHOUT a freestanding, bog standard, sit on top of the panel ordinary, everyday direct reading, magnetic Compass?

 

IF this is the case, the flight was illegal, and a tad devoid of common sense.

 

Unless a compass has been fitted (and calibrated) then ALL subequent flights would be illegal. I take it the situation HAS been fixed? :raise_eyebrow:

 

Can anyone from RAA comment on this?

 

Ben

 

The CAOs are pretty danged clear on this; CAO 20.18 Appendix 1 for VFR flights; states your plane must be fitted with a direct reading magnetic compass or a remote indicating compass AND a standby direct reading magnetic compass. In other words, your plane has to have a magnetic compass fitted. Even if you have a remote reading compass displayed on a GPS. No iffs or buts. Im not one for sticking up for regulations, but to me this CAO seems to be based on sheer common sense.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Ultralights, not many rec acft have radio nav equipment anyway.. We teach the good old fashioned eyeballs, a map and a watch method.. Having a gps is great, but when teaching navigation i think it should be an afterthought, and i don't have it switched on during nav x's.. I mean how hard is it to hit page, select location and hit goto...there, briefing over, your now rated to use the gps..

 

 

[Guest High Plains Drifter]

J430, looking at the GPS, GS readout, you must have had your jabiru on full afterburner to crack 201Kts

 

how hard is it to hit page, select location and hit goto

That sounds a bit complex for me. I usually just scroll around the map to find the airport - then hit goto

 

 

[Guest J430]

J430, looking at the GPS, GS readout, you must have had your jabiru on full afterburner to crack 201Kts

HPD :thumb_up:

 

Yeah beat that!

 

Actually was C210 with a few knots of tail wind and a decent into Bundy. The Jab has seen 164 kts once!

 

J:rotary:

 

PS Mike yes correct they are NPA's here. If we ever get WASS..... life will be good!

 

 

[Guest brentc]

J430 let me know when you beat 195 in the Jab and we can talk turkey.

 

My record is 265knots Ground Speed in the Cirrus - fastest I've been in a single piston and faster than turbine for that matter too.

 

To answer the question earlier, yes, you need to have a compass to be legal.

 

Often aircraft are shipped to OZ without them and then later fitted with a Southern Hemisphere model. Perhaps someone forgot to fit it.

 

 

[farri]

Ultralights, not many rec acft have radio nav equipment anyway.. We teach the good old fashioned eyeballs, a map and a watch method.. Having a gps is great, but when teaching navigation i think it should be an afterthought, and i don't have it switched on during nav x's.. I mean how hard is it to hit page, select location and hit goto...there, briefing over, your now rated to use the gps..

Hi Motzartmerv,

 

I mostly agree with you, however, I also agree with Ultralights about the GPS.

 

I taught standard "good old fasfioned,eyeballs map and watch method",also, and became frustrated when some students decided they didn`t need it because they could now use their, new,trusty, GPS.

 

The GPS is here to stay for a while and it does make navigating far easier for those who understand it`s use and missuse,properly.

 

Pilots are going to use them regardless however it does have it`s pitfalls to those who are not aware of them so would it not be better to instruct on how to use them correctly ,because it is "NOT" as easy to use a GPS as you have put it.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[motzartmerv]

Frank..ok, so mabye there's more to it then that, but basically i believe i summed up the standard use of gps.. What ive found is guys that use the gps all the time get very lazy, to the point that they even stop doing flight plans.. They just jump, hit a few buttons and off they go.. While a gps is a very complicated device it isn't complicated to use..My nanna has one in her car for cryin out loud.

 

Sure teach them to use it, but navigation training should be that, how to navigate, not how to dial up a gps (INHO)..Something i stress strongly to my guys is that useing the gps is fine, it makes for a less stressfull flight, but still do a flight plan, carry all the maps and gear, and mark on the map or wherever some points as you fly over them..time and position.. so that if the yanks turn the lights out or the gps packsup, you have at least kept ontop of things..

 

cheers;)

 

 

[Ultralights]

just a quick update before i go to bed, been a long drive back from Narrandera.

 

I am assuming the Technam was delivered with a compass, but the compass was replaced by a GPS unit. either that, or it has been moved to a location i couldnt find while having a quick look inside..

 

all my navs are done the good old fashioned way, simply because i was taught in the days before GPS existed. during the long gaps between fix points on my navs across south western NSW, from narrandera to Hay to deni, to echuka, shepperton and back, i was playing around with the GPS, and quickly discovered i had no idea how to program in waypoints, all i could do was the find nearest, scroll down and pick a place to goto. thats it. though the only handy feature i did use was the estimated time at destination, came in usefull when there was 40 mins between waypoints, and showed that i had planned with winds to within the minute. i think the thurthest i was out was 3 mins from yarrawonga to nerrandera, due to a weakening tailwind. eg, if i had estimated a town at time 23 then time 45 at destination, i could use the gps to see if i was pretty close, with it saying time at destination 44. so i could be sure to expect the town at 23 pretty accurately. though considering i have never flown in that region, the furthest off track i was was a positive fix 5 miles off track in a 90nm sector across the hay plains. i was quite pleased with my performance :big_grin:..

 

 

[Guest J430]

BrentC

 

Somehow I do not think I am likely to top that GS in the Jab. Thats fairly hauling! Unless we get some massive westerly winds on the return leg of our cape trip from Charleville.

 

Ultra

 

The Tecnam is possibly delivered to Oz without a compass, so a southern hemisphere one can be fitted here. Perhaps it was overlooked?

 

J

 

 

[Guest Roger]

Ultralights - Not to high jack your thread here but I would like to congratulate you on the great effort you put in to gain your new Instructor Rating. I am sure that it will bring you much pleasure to give others the freedom of flight! :thumb_up:

 

Good to see you made it home ok - those roads are bloody dangerous - full of city drivers!

 

 

 

[Mazda]

True that ILS is the only precision approach in Australia, and that basically requires a VOR. As we don't have approved WAAS here, GNSS approaches are non-precision. The ground based GBAS (inferior to WAAS in my opinion) seems to be under review (so will probably take decades and perhaps only be at major airports).

 

It's also true that GPS has different TSO standards. Not even all IFR GPS units are certified for "sole" use, but they are certified for "primary" use backed up with other aids. VFR GPS units are not certified for "primary" use, so therefore they are a back up to visual navigation and/or other aids.

 

Also to use GPS to this level does require a log book course, and DOES have traps. Think of the Benalla accident - they were conducting a GPS approach and something went terribly wrong.

 

They are the cautions, but I do agree GPS is the best navigation tool we have and we should use it!

 

 

[farri]

Frank..ok, so mabye there's more to it then that, but basically i believe i summed up the standard use of gps.. What ive found is guys that use the gps all the time get very lazy, to the point that they even stop doing flight plans.. They just jump, hit a few buttons and off they go.. While a gps is a very complicated device it isn't complicated to use..My nanna has one in her car for cryin out loud.Sure teach them to use it, but navigation training should be that, how to navigate, not how to dial up a gps (INHO)..Something i stress strongly to my guys is that useing the gps is fine, it makes for a less stressfull flight, but still do a flight plan, carry all the maps and gear, and mark on the map or wherever some points as you fly over them..time and position.. so that if the yanks turn the lights out or the gps packsup, you have at least kept ontop of things..

cheers;)

I Couldn`t agree more with what you`ve said this time, :thumb_up: It`s what I meant when I said I was frustrated by the attitude of some students.

 

Dead Reckoning navigation has to be learnt before using any GPS and no cross country endorsement should be issued,otherwise.

 

A GPS is only an aid to navigating.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

It`s better to be down here wishing you were up there than to be up there wishing you were down here.

 

 

[Yenn]

If you are instructing in a plane fitted with a GPS, do you teach the student how to use it.

 

I was taught in GA aircraft that had VOR and ADF fitted but never got any instruction on them. Had to read it up and teach myself. I havn't flown a plane with an installed GPS, but I guess it would take a lot of learning to teach yourself while flying and also be unsafe. I hvn't found out yet how to use the GPS in Flightsim.

 

 

[Ben Longden]

My cousin drives VC10s and L1011s for the RAF, ferrying "self loading cargo", and his navigation skills are all grounded on a map, compass and stopwatch.

 

While the AC he flies do have full IFR instruments, he actually bought his own GPS unit to check his own maths....

 

Ben

 

 

[farri]

GPS Instruction.

 

As far as I`m aware the standard "Dead Reckoning" method of navigating,which is, Map Compass and Watch is still taught in GA and must continue to be taught to Recreational pilot also,a GPS is a back up only and can fail at any time.

 

I think it is up to the individual who wants to use a GPS, to learn how to use it properly and seek help and advice if needed,however, I think it would be an advantage to the student, if those instructors who are proficient in it`s use were to teach on it`s use.

 

I have been using a GPS for many years, for reef fishing at night and it can`t be done safely without it ,but I rearly use it for flying prefering the exercise of planing my flight which a GPS can`t do.

 

Can anyone calculate their fuel requirements with a GPS

 

Frank.

 

 

[Mazda]

Anyone can press direct to on a VFR GPS, that's true that it isn't difficult. But I have to disagree that using all GPS units is simple. Unlike car GPS units, the more complex ones can take a fair bit of working out. Databases must be up to date, RAIM, PDOP (or equivalent) considered, offset tracking status known and so on. And not all IFR units have a moving map.

 

If it is so simple, an IFR pilot could be current in a Garmin 430, then jump in something with a KLN89B or a Trimble and do an approach - but the rules state they must have some currency on the unit being used.

 

I do agree that everyone needs to learn how to navigate VFR using a map, watch and compass first, without GPS. That's why VFR aircraft have no navaid requirement at all!

 

Ben the RAF seem to have a history of that, and it wasn't so long ago they had some fast jet pilots navigating with a map, compass and stop watch too.

 

But I also think if you are flying an aircraft with a navaid you can't use, it would be wise to get even some basic information on how to use it.

 

 

[ahlocks]

Can anyone calculate their fuel requirements with a GPS

Frank.

Certainly can

 

But! I reckon it's quicker to do the flight plan on paper with the whizwheel

 

 

[farri]

Whiz Wheel.

 

Hi ahlocks,

 

I love the whiz wheel :thumb_up:.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.