GPS training

[farri]

If you are instructing in a plane fitted with a GPS, do you teach the student how to use it.I was taught in GA aircraft that had VOR and ADF fitted but never got any instruction on them. Had to read it up and teach myself. I havn't flown a plane with an installed GPS, but I guess it would take a lot of learning to teach yourself while flying and also be unsafe. I hvn't found out yet how to use the GPS in Flightsim.

Hi Yen,

 

I keep asuming we`re talking about, ( Ultralight ) , recreational aircraft.

 

I havn`t seen any of these aircraft come with a GPS system,they a normaly fitted later.

 

GPS come in different makes and models and it would be a difficult subject to teach,on,how to use the particular model, however there are some basic rules to follow so as to stay out of trouble,as you know, and this can and should be taught.

 

Do Instructors know the pitfalls of the GPS.

 

Cheers,

 

Frank.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

... the more complex ones can take a fair bit of working out.

Basic units have their own gotchas too. For example -

 

Transposing digits or other typos when entering waypoints.

 

Inadvertently selecting the wrong hemisphere - in countries on the Greenwich meridian this isn't always as obvious as here.

 

Selecting wrong waypoint to go to - very easy when the waypoint names are limited to 6 unique characters

 

Easy to use isn't the same as easy to learn

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Guest J430]

You are spot on Crezzi!

 

There is one of the YCAB locals who tells a story of a selection error in his GPS leaving Emerald...... he actually followed the pointer for a minute or so until the penny dropped he was headed the wrong way!

 

Now if it was a long leg and only say 20 degrees different you may not notice it in the outback! And that could be a bit embarassing:black_eye:

 

Pays to check your track against your plan ..... even when following the Magenta Line.

 

J:wave:

 

 

[Guest brentc]

On TSO'ed units it's impossible to edit the waypoints so this isn't a problem. That way, mistakes are not made. There was an air crash investigation OS on this issue - the pilots entered the wrong waypoints and smashed into a mountain.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

That's interesting - I didn't know that. So they can't be used to navigate direct to, for example, a strip on a mates property which isn't in the database ?

 

 

[Guest brentc]

That's exactly correct. If a human can't input a coordinate, they can't make a mistake! Coordinates come via Jeppensen / the manufacturer and are checked and certified so mistakes aren't made. The LAME or Avionics technician then downloads them to the unit at regular intervals. If the GPS isn't current, the aircraft is not IFR certified.

 

 

[Guest Crezzi]

That's certainly an effective solution to a lot of finger trouble problems. Good point about certifiying the coordinates - I found several entries in the 2002 AOPA guide which were wrong.

 

Are these GPS required for IFR only - not something recreational flyers would have to have if ADS-B became mandatory ?

 

Cheers

 

John

 

 

[Mazda]

That's not quite accurate. The Jeppesen database waypoints cannot be altered on TSOd GPS, that's true. However they WILL take user defined waypoints as well. Even fully integrated FMS type units like the UNS-1 and Proline 21 will take user waypoints.

 

IFR GPS units are available to anyone who can afford them, but they are not cheap!

 

ADS-B won't have anything to do with it. If it is mandated, and if we get the 1090-ES version, it will just be like a transponder for us. It is only the ADS-B 'out' planned for fitment for small aircraft, so there's no screen, and not really any benefit to us.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

Yes Mazda, you can't change the built in coordinates but you could add some user waypoints, so provided you selected the correct airports all will be fine. Hopefully that feature has saved a life or two.

 

I recall when the Piper Cheyanne crashed killing 5 people near Wangaratta a few years back, investigators checked the PC that the coordinates were last downloaded from and found them to be correct, however an additional point may have been entered that the pilot was tracking to that was some 34 kilometres from his intended destination.

 

 

[Mazda]

The Benalla Cheyenne had commenced a GPS approach, and the radar trace shows the aircraft conducting this GPS approach, but it was off track. They were using the old Trimble GPS which has an offset mode, and the offset is supposed to automatically turn off when the approach is commenced. One school using this GPS conducted some ground tests and found that the offset mode sometimes didn't turn off when the approach was commenced. So that is also a possibility.

 

I wish the controllers had said something though. They had to silence an off track alarm something like 3 times and still let them commence the approach.

 

 

[Guest brentc]

From memory it was 3-4 degrees off track from the time it left Sydney which is why it was so far away from the intended destination.

 

Problem was that because the same pilot did the same trip nearly every day of the working week the controllers thought he would be fine, hence the silencing of the alarms.

 

Not long after the accident the ATSB contacted me and we tested some theories regarding 'phantom' GPS coordinates (long story), however we didn't find anything concrete.

 

 

[Mazda]

It's a bit of a mystery. I do know of one operator who did manage to replicate an offset appoach on their Trimble.

 

The aircraft actually tracked first close to Ulladulla. After that it did seem to be off track, flying IFR in Class A airspace. I have no idea why the controllers didn't say something then, or later when the aircraft was clearly well off track, low, in IMC, and near mountains.

 

The families of people involved have been pushing to try to have radar controllers looking after the airspace.

 

 

[skybum]

People, my two cents worth in what I think happened at BLA. Aircraft on this route almost every week. YSBK to YBLA. DCT takes you over AY and WGT aids to line up on BLAED the northernmost start point for the Benalla NPA. What we know, a diversion down to Ulladulla cleared DCT BLA from around that position. Numerous alarms in ATC to show aircraft is off course. Witness statements that an aircraft was heard overflying Myrtleford heading SW in very heavy cloud. The crash site just to the south of Mt Bellevue at a height of some 1700ft. Radar data has been said to be very unreliable in that area.

 

My opinion in what has happened. Friends of family on board, including a very capable helicopter aviator. Two pilots up front one regular, one not. One 'not' may have input the data into the trimble. Could a "BLAEG" be mistaken for a "BLAED" or "BLAEE"? Starting from a non normal position a DCT is given from position to BLA. No aids on track to verify. If BLAEG is input then the cheese lines up with the reported sighting near Myrtlford Ulladulla and the crash site. A straight line! The altitude at the crash site is way below the NPA until way inside the final approach fix. I believe this may have been the case due to the pilots believing they were heading for BLAEE and expecting the command to turn right to head for the FAF. The track from "I" to "F" is over low ground, an assumption could be that pilot having flown this trip hundreds of times before knew that ground clearance allowed you to be lower than profile. If pilot was challenged by ATC to ask if ops normal I am sure the pilot would have replied in affirmative. UNLESS the specific question was "Confirm tracking for GOLF" ATC now have these waypoints showing on their screens where before they were not. The information was not available to ATC to even warn pilot.

 

A terrible tragedy. As always, the disaster averted at any time if the pilot was alerted to his error. I fear the pilot "knew" where he was, a shame it was in the wrong spot.

 

GPS is a fantastic device, just make tripple sure you are being taken to where you want to go.

 

 

[Mazda]

Maybe, but there ARE radar traces almost all the way to the crash site, and I don't think it was at G. The radar trace shows the aircraft conducting a GPS approach as though from BLAED to BLAEI, but it is well away from those waypoints.

 

I'm not sure what happened but it does appear that they thought there were at BLAED.

 

I still find it hard to imagine that the controllers turned off the alarms. If only they had said they were off track! Radar on the east coast is good, even if patchy down low in the mountains. The fact that there were radar traces of their position is proof of this.

 

 

[skybum]

I have a thing with my wife. She is under strict instructions to beat me sensless if I ever attempt to turn back to the field after an engine failure. When the time comes I will teach her how to read an approach plate to make doubly sure that I am where I am supposed to be and at the correct altitude for the sector. If she finds me outside the parameters she must refer to rule one and beat me sensless.

 

A briefing goes a long way as does a checklist. GPS is a great tool but is a victim of the the computer maxim. GARBAGE IN = GARBAGE OUT!

 

 

[Guest airsick]

I have a thing with my wife. She is under strict instructions to beat me sensless if I ever attempt to turn back to the field after an engine failure. When the time comes I will teach her how to read an approach plate to make doubly sure that I am where I am supposed to be and at the correct altitude for the sector. If she finds me outside the parameters she must refer to rule one and beat me sensless.A briefing goes a long way as does a checklist. GPS is a great tool but is a victim of the the computer maxim. GARBAGE IN = GARBAGE OUT!

If you are beaten senseless then who will land the plane?

 

 

[bushpilot]

Re BLA: Would not terrain awareness (a la Garmin) have averted this disaster?

 

 

[skybum]

Once I am beaten sensless I am supposed to regain my composure and fly the bloody plane. Euphamism for nagging me into doing the right thing:thumb_up: A fate far worse than actually being beaten sensless:laugh:

 

Its a marriage thing.

 

Just to add for Bushpilot- Yes, terrain awareness AND the graphic display that goes with it would show in an instant they were not heading in the right direction

 

 

[Mazda]

An Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System could have alerted them, yes. Or the controller could have just told them they were off track and below Lowest Safe.