Poor cranking - my problem resolved.

[Guest catalpa]

Catalpa

 

My 160C would not start, extra batteries , jumpers etc, did what Brent said plus remove "O" ring and extra an3 washer (x1each bolt) on starter, no problems down to -2. my 160 is used every day for training and I no longer have to worry about starting. It is 3 years old, 1660hrs, original everything including battery, dizzy caps and rotors.

 

 

[slartibartfast]

Thanks for reminding me.

 

As well as a completely broken starter solenoid, it turns out my Odyssey battery was stuffed too. Not sure how related the 2 things are, or which came first.

 

It had plenty of volts and amps - until a load was applied.

 

It was only 7 months old.

 

I've replaced it with a Deka while sorting out the warranty claim. On advice from the experts, I'm also going to leave it on a trickle charger between aerial appointments.

 

It better start tomorrow.....

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Lithium Iron Phosphate battery information

 

Hello Gentlemen. I was recently alerted to this forum by a member here who explained that several members were talking about the technical article I wrote for the July edition of Pacific Flyer magazine. I would be happy to answer in detail any questions any members may have regarding this new battery technology and why these batteries offer vastly superior performance to lead acid starting batteries.

 

 

[jacmiles]

Hello Gentlemen. I was recently alerted to this forum by a member here who explained that several members were talking about the technical article I wrote for the July edition of Pacific Flyer magazine. I would be happy to answer in detail any questions any members may have regarding this new battery technology and why these batteries offer vastly superior performance to lead acid starting batteries.

Where to buy,Pricing and what kind of batteries to run Jab 2200,3300 100 hp rotax and maybe a 1100cc jet ski. Do they need any retail outlets in QLD. Info would be appreciated.

 

 

[markendee]

LiFePO4 in Savannah

 

I have one in my incomplete Savannah.

 

Am very close to firing it up. Will give it a good workout from initial run - lots of starts and stops, being winter it will sort out the men from the boys.

 

I will be happy to report on it's performance.

 

So far all I can say is it is light, compact and the fact it does not give off hydrogen and it cannot leak or cause corrosion was enough for me to give it a go.

 

Mark

 

 

[Captain]

Mark

 

What did you pay for yours, approx. what does it weigh, and where did you get it from?

 

I have tried to access the website after Ross provided the link, but can only get the front page. Other pages will not open from that.

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Guys, firstly let me apologise for the fact that the website is currently disabled since we are in the process of setting up a new site with our full range of battery products for the full sphere of applications including such things as solar and standby power.

 

Yes, these batteries will provide better performance than any lead acid battery when you consider they don't produce any hydrogen gas, can be left in a partial state of charge for long periods without being damaged (also no such thing as sulphation) and they have a much lower rate of self discharge if not being used.

 

Also they are much lighter than a lead acid battery.

 

I am based in Sydney and just returned from a trip to Qld where I drove to Bundaberg to demonstrate the batteries to the engineers at the Jabiru factory only last week. The guys at Jabiru made the comment that they liked the fact the battery is considerably lighter in weight than the Odyssey battery they currently use as the 12V10Ah battery weighs a little over 2kg. I supplied the factory with a demo sample to test out in their aircraft over the coming months (model SB1210C). It will be interesting to see their results at the end of the year.

 

One factor which most people are not aware of using these batteries is that the higher initial cost is soon recovered by the fuel savings achived by using a LiFePO4 battery. The battery saves fuel when compared to a lead acid battery in two ways-

 

1, LiFePO4 batteries typically have a very high charge efficiency rate of minimum 95% while lead acid cranking batteries are typically only around 70% efficient in charging. This means that there is less constant load placed on the engine due to loading the alternator to charge a battery which is depleted.

 

2, the nominal voltage of a LiFePO4 battery is slightly higher (12.8-13.2V) compared to a lead acid battery. In tests done on cars overseas it has been shown that the higher battery voltage translates to a higher secondary voltage produced at the sparkplug and this stronger spark means better starting and increased combustion efficiency.

 

I was a bit skeptical about the fuel savings until I actually put a battery in my own car (Toyota Camry touring wagon) three weeks ago and tried it out on my 3000 km return trip from Sydney-Bundaberg-Sydney. I was quite surprised that the savings in fuel were quite notaceable.:thumb_up: I was able to drive further on a tank of fuel than I had ever driven on the same run and I have done the run (from Sydney to Brissie especially) several times.

 

If anyone would like me to email them an interesting technical article with some actual test data feel free to pm me with your email address so I can send you the article.

 

It is not until you have used one of these batteries that you see how good they are. If they weren't all they are cracked up to be they wouldn't come with a full 3 years warranty as standard!

 

 

 

[Admin]

Please note I have just spoken to lithbattboss who is the distributor for these batteries and we both believe that these batteries would be a great addition to and be available cheaper then the Recommended Retail price through the Clear Prop shop very soon.

 

Remember that all proceeds (the little that is made) from the shop go directly towards paying all the costs in keeping these forums free for everyone.

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

BMI LiFePO4 batteries to be available through the Clearprop Shop!

 

I would like to announce that BMI high power engine start batteries are to be made available through the Clearprop Shop. I would like to thank Ian for providing the Clearprop Shop as the preferred outlet for purchasing one of these batteries and for being one of very few select distributors nationwide (the only Australian aircraft parts and equipment supplier where you can buy these batteries) so to all of you who were asking where the batteries are available they will soon be available right here.

 

It should be noted that by purchasing one of the batteries from the Clearprop Shop you are not only supporting the forum but will be able to purchase the batteries at prices cheaper than the recommended retail prices.

 

It should further be noted that these batteries are a very specialised product and are not just a plain battery made of cells connected together internally since each battery incorporates complex monitoring and control electronics which is known as a BMS (Battery Management System). It is for this reason that these batteries will not be available through your average battery shop since specialised knowledge is required to specify a suitable battery for any given application.

 

I would urge anyone contemplating purchasing one of these batteries for their aircraft to read the technical article in the July edition of Pacific Flyer magazine since this article provides a very useful comparison with lead acid battery technology so the individual aircraft owner can make an informed decision as to if they believe this battery will be suitable for their specific aircraft battery needs.

 

Armin Pauza

 

National Distributor & Principal Electrical Engineer

 

Lithium Batteries Australia &

 

Battery Manufacturer's International (BMI Australia)

 

ph.0420948757

 

[email protected]

 

 

[Captain]

G'day Armin

 

The voltage regulator in some aircraft is pretty crude.

 

Are these batteries better or worse than lead acid at accepting 14.7 volt charge spikes (that is my description but remember that I are just a lever & fulcrum type mechanical engine-ear so keep your reply simple).

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest Andys@coffs]

......It should further be noted that these batteries are a very specialised product and are not just a plain battery made of cells connected together internally since each battery incorporates complex monitoring and control electronics which is known as a BMS (Battery Management System). It is for this reason that these batteries will not be available through your average battery shop since specialised knowledge is required to specify a suitable battery for any given application.......

Armin. Looking at the photos you provided there appears to be just the standard anode / cathode connection. Is this BMS fully internal or is there a need for additional or changed support circuitry?

 

Also, while it appears from the commentary you provided that the jabiru guys are interested did they comment on the change to CoG that would likely occur as a result of the change in weight? If I end up having to put ballest up front to address the change in CoG then nothing real may have been achieved (from an overall weight saving perspective)

 

Andy

 

P.S thanks for joining and providing info, though I'd suggest that the likelyhood of getting any of these into an aircraft without someone talking through the issues is about zip. we are a conservative bunch and as someone in another forum post pointed out the rotax 912/4 series uses an electric fuel pump. No battery = no pump equals going down....

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Hi Geoff,

 

The BMS manages inter cell balance and activates the "yellow button" reserve capacity function which is built into the battery so that in the event of a piece of electrical equipment being left switched on accidently in an aircraft, boat or car the battery will completely shut down at 11.4 volts. By pressing the yellow button the reserve capacity is activated which provides enough power for about another ten engine starts.

 

The end of charge voltage (whereby the battery will achieve a full charge) is 14.6 volts but slight overcharge of up to around 15 volts will not affect performance since the cells are relatively tolerant to overcharge conditions for short periods.

 

To give you an example of weight, four cells are used in series to make a 12 volt battery. Each cell weighs 360gms so the total cell weight for a 12 volt battery is only 1.44kg. The total battery weight is approximately 2.3kg and this additional weight is made up of the BMS electronics, internal wiring, gold plated battery terminals and aluminuim and plastic battery case. The plastic used in these battery cases is a special plastic called Xytel which is manufactured by DuPont and has been chosen for its flame retardent qualities. All battery terminals are gold plated for long term corrosion resistance since these same batteries are also used for marine/boating applications where they are subject to salt water corrosion.

 

Attached is a photo of the BMS board which is fitted into the top section of the battery and fits on top of the cylindrical high power 40138F1 LiFeP04 battery cells which are connected together with copper bus bars. Each internal cell has M6 threaded terminals so if several years down the track a cell were to become faulty the battery can be returned to the service workshop and a replacement cell fitted and the battery can go back into service.

 

I am yet to hear of any instance where a cell has failed in any battery worldwide and the cells have been tested to over 8000 cycles by the US Department of Energy Laboratories.

 

Attached in the second photo is a bare 40138F1 cell showing the threaed battery terminals at either end. This 10Ah cell is rated at 3.3V and has a peak output current of over 200amps.

 

 

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Andy, the BMS is all built into the battery so it is just a matter of direct replacement with a lead acid battery.

 

Regarding the issue of the Rotax electric fuel pump. I believe the LiFePO4 battery is considerably safer and more reliable than any lead acid battery.

 

Quick comparison-

 

Lead acid battery = antiquated, heavy and inefficient battery technology invented over 100 years ago which contains corrosive sulphuric acid and toxic heavy metals like lead.

 

Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4 battery) = latest battery technology invented at the University of Texas in the early 1990's and developed for use by the US military as a super lightweight, highly reliable power source. Solid construction cells which can't fail in the same way as fragile lead plates eventually do due to vibration.

 

I will leave it to you to decide which battery you believe is the better choice!;)

 

Andy, the Jabiru guys didn't mention anything to me about CofG issues. The one thing they did mention doesn't relate to aircraft in Australia but for their aircraft sales for the european market. They mentioned that they are very close to the weight limit for certification in certain european countries so where ever they can save on weight and keep the total aircraft weight down even by a few hundred grams here and there is of great advantage to them for the european aircraft market.

 

After all the battery can easily be moved to another location to adjust for change in CofG. Much easier solution than an aircraft which simply can't be certified/has difficulty being certified because of its weight.

 

 

[Captain]

Are these batteries better or worse than lead acid at accepting 14.7 volt charge spikes Regards Geoff

Thanks Armin. So I guess that's a yes then.

 

 

 

The big and probably only issue for me is cold cranking power, and my position is similar to the way I read Andy's post. On my 230 I am not looking for less weight fwd of the C of G. In fact a bit more would be nice, although with your lighter units I guess I could add a bit of ballast further forward and save overall weight.

 

 

 

So the evaluation (for me) involves your product vs the next size up in the current brand (& of course Cost (so pull your finger out, Ian) and battery life at full cold cranking capability).

 

 

 

Yours do look to be well engineered and I'll follow the further discussion on this thread with interest.

 

 

 

On one other point ..... how do yours compare with lead acid as far as susceptibility to vibration?

 

 

 

Thanks for your input so far.

 

 

 

Regards Geoff

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Of course there is nothing stopping you from using the next battery size up if you want more power but bear in mind the next size up not only has double the cranking power of the smaller battery but is also close to twice the price. This is the 20Ah size and weighs in at 4.2kg This size battery is used for most family size six cylinder cars and is the battery size I installed in my own car. It will easily start a 3000cc petrol motor.

 

The batteries perform much better at cold temperatures than lead acid batteries right down to below zero degrees.

 

Lead acid batteries often eventually fail because the cell plates are made of lead so are quite fragile and can fail due to metal fatigue caused by vibration. The individual LiFePO4 cells are completely solid and therefore are not fragile like the plates in a lead acid battery. This translates to greater long term reliability.

 

 

[BigPete]

Check out this link!

 

It's awesome. You won't believe it. I want one.

 

YouTube - Lithium ion Polymer Batteries

 

regards

 

:big_grin::big_grin:

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Yes it is awesome Pete and yes you can believe it!

 

I am extremely familiar with the cells used in the battery pack to start the bike in the u-tube video and have been using them for some time now.

 

The SB1210C battery which will soon be available from the Clearprop Shop has even greater/longer cranking capacity than the battery shown in the video.

 

The actual cells used in the batteries shown in the video are commonly used to make lithium ion cordless power tool batteries which are built by one of the major power tool manufacturers. The actual cells used in these packs are shown in the photo and are the white cells at the back next to the cell marked "B".

 

The cells used in the construction of the aircraft starting battery (which yes, you can buy here:big_grin:) is the huge cell at the front of the photo with the threaded terminals marked "E". The smaller power tool cells have a capacity of 2.3Ah while the huge cell is rated at 10Ah.

 

The smaller cell (used in the bike video) has a rated continous discharge current of 70amps while the larger cell has a rated continous discharge current of 120amps.

 

Incidently the engineers at the Jabiru factory told me that their engine starter motor draws 80 amps while cranking. Since the smallest battery I provided them with can supply 120amps continously I considered the SB1210C battery to be adequate in size and capacity to satisfy Jabiru's requirements.

 

 

 

[hfrensch]

What are the dimensions of the battery suggested for the jabiru 3300 engine application? What is the predicted price ?

 

Cheers Helmut.

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

The dimensions of the SB1210-C (12V10Ah) fuel saving engine start battery are

 

182x182x71mm. The battery weighs approximately 2.3kg.

 

It comes with gold plated terminals for superior long term corrosion resistance and the case is made from DuPont Xytel plastic which is used for its flame retardent properties. I am discussing the pricing for forum members with Ian at the moment and we are trying the have the price of the batteries bought through the Clear Prop shop to be considerably cheaper than the recommended retail price. I hope we can have the price available in the next few days.

 

I hope that helps.

 

 

[Guest pelorus32]

G'day LithBattBoss,

 

do you do deep cycle versions of these batteries or is the technology not suitable?

 

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Mike these lithium batteries are both an engine cranking battery AND a deep cycle battery all in one! People find this a difficult concept to understand since all most people are familiar with are lead acid batteries and the requirement to have either an engine cranking or a separate AGM/gel/deep cycle type which in the lead acid world are quite different to each other.

 

LiFePO4 batteries are suitable for any application where either type of lead acid battery would be used.

 

The HPS series is the battery which is most suitable for applications where a deep cycle battery would be used such as for solar power, house power on boats, caravan power and to power electric cars, bikes, golf buggies, electric wheelchairs etc..etc... The HPS series is quite a bit more complex than the engine start SB series in that it has computer data connectors on the front of the battery rather than the yellow button which activates reserve power on the engine start battery. The HPS series is the most advanced battery in the world in terms of monitoring and diagnotic capabilities and features full satellite monitoring of the battery. To explain this in very simplistic terms the HPS battery can be configured so that it can perform an automatic test of every cell in the battery remotely up to twice a day. If any battery is found to be developing a possible problem with an internal cell (up to 255 batteries can be used in any single battery installation) an SMS message or email is sent to the customer alerting them to check their battery no matter where in the world they may be.

 

Of course this is a very simplistic explaination since I don't want to confuse any non technical readers of this forum but shows the advanced battery technology which is available now.

 

An example of a HPS series battery is shown in the photo.

 

 

 

 

[Jabiru Phil]

Hi,

 

This is a great subject as so many of us have starting problems. I would like to ask if it is possible to use jumper leads if the battery has discharged for whatever reason and do I need a special charger to recharge?

 

Phil.

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Of course you can use jumper leads if required. You just treat it like you would any other battery. In fact they make the perfect jump starting battery if fitted into a suitable box with a carry handle. Such a battery will never let you down as an auxillary jump starting battery for your aeroplane, car, 4WD or boat. Since the battery is only half the weight of an equivalent size lead acid battery it won't kill your back while carrying it around!

 

Most standard lead acid battery chargers will only charge the battery to around 95% capacity however because of the slightly higher terminal voltage of the LiFePO4 battery chemistry. Lead acid batteries have six,two volt cells connected together in series to give a nominal voltage of 12 volts. By contrast LiFePO4 battery cells are 3.2-3.3 volts each therefore only four cells are used to make a 12 volt battery (12.8-13.2 volts actually).

 

 

[hfrensch]

Thanks Lithbattboss,

 

I am currentley helping my brother build a lightning and will want a battery in a few months. We will definately be buying one.

 

Cheers Helmut.

 

 

[Guest lithbattboss]

Cold weather and the LiFePO4 battery

 

I have had several Jabiru owners tell me of their difficulty in starting their aircraft in cold weather. I even received a phone call from a Jabiru owner from country Victoria this morning who told me that so long as the temperature was above 10 degrees C their aircraft would start reliably without a problem but once the temperature dropped below 10 degrees the aircraft was near impossible to start. I was quite surprised to hear that such difficulty was experienced at this temperature. I would expect starting problems to occur at around zero degrees but 10 degrees?!

 

I decided to check what data and real life user information was available for the starting ability of LiFePO4 batteries compared to their lead acid battery cousins.

 

It turns out that LiFePO4 batteries perform well down to -25 degrees C.

 

Out of curiosity I decided to try to start my car first thing in the morning since I had replaced the lead acid battery in my own car with a lithium one only a few weeks ago and had not tried an early morning start as yet. I went out to my car at 7am and the thermometer was reading 3 degrees C. I started the car and the engine cranked over just as if it was the middle of a warm day. I could not notice any hint of sluggishness or hesitation in starting whatsoever.

 

I am confident the same result would be the case with an aircraft engine.

 

If Jabiru decide to adopt this battery it could open up a whole new market selling LiFePO4 engine start batteries to penguin and polar bear Jabiru owners in Antarctica!:raise_eyebrow:

 

It will be good to receive some feedback of people who have bought the batteries for their aircraft and I hope they will post their experience here for all to read about.