Orchid Beach Airstrip, Fraser Island

[ausadvance]

ausadvance why did you not drag the strip I plead ignorance here, what do you mean by drag the strip? 

 

I went into this strip at about the same number of hours as Ryan. I didn't enjoy it one bit. The problem I had were the clumps of grass threw the plane all over the place on the ground. I was in a Foxbat. I certainly wouldn't go in there in a Jabiru, not without a lot more hours in the Jabiru first and I would certainly want some short field/soft field training beforehand as well. The other real problem I had was the wind sock. I got totally inaccurate info from it. In hindsight I should have been more aware, there was an obvious onshore breeze but the windsock did not reflect that.

 

 

 

My comment at the time was that I would never go back there, however I am now at a point where I would consider it again. I have learned a lot since the first time.

No worries geoff, illsend you a message on face book about how to do all of the above. Some good bush strip practices. We can practice them at little italy one day

 

Ryan, if you ever like id be more than happy to run you through some good bush strip/off airport techniques and could tell you a bit about how to identify surface and wind conditions before landing. I do reasonable amount of bush flying and take pleasure in passing on what ive learnt

 

 

[DrZoos]

hi .ryan , firstly thanks for sharing your experience, others will definitely learn from this discussion. Im sure in time you will look at this very differently. I know when the helicopter flew across my runway, while I was doing touch and goes and nearly killled me, i initially attributed all blame to him since he was in the wrong.... Some dialogue on here where a little blunt at the time, but as time went on I realised there where a lot of things I could and should have done differently, despite the fact the helicopter broke several rules and was technically wrong.

 

Orchid beach is a very tricky runway in the best of conditions, it has a lot of slope, its very bumpy in patches , it has visual height illusions at both ends, its subject to windshear and the wind sock often points different to the approach winds.

 

Its normal in a near death experience to go through the stages of grieving being disbelief, anger, blame, acceptance and understanding . It seems your prob still in the first three stages... So what both you and others need to understand is, your not going to see eye to eye on this , yet.

 

Camel, your strong words directed at me where not necesary, I made no judgement of the event to show poor decision making with an exclamation. In fact quiet the opposite. I showed sufficient restraint to recognize that several parties in a post incident event discussion would not be seeing the same facts anytime soon. i chose to word it like that as I did t want to get into an argument that has two parties seeing different realities right now, one of which is still in the trauma/grieving post event process, who came looking for support and validation.

 

ryan, please dont take any further action in writing to anyone or ringing anyone to complain , till you have had a lot of time to process this...anger aimed at aerodrome operators, closes aerodromes and without them we cant land.

 

Other pilots be warned about the grass length and surface.

 

 

[DanCubMan]

Don't know why I bothered - totally missing the point.Lets start by admitting my mistakes before you all get uptight and on the offensive towards my experience / attitude / personality / eye colour. The mistake made was to not abort the take off. I had assessed the conditions for which I was not happy with, and I should have aborted. BUT the reality was I didn't and as a result I had to commit because it was too late to brake as I would have fallen off the end of the embankment so at this point I thought based on very quick risk assessment, I would get the speed required (which I just did) to take off and I chose this over braking late and falling end over end off the cliff.

 

I don't need to put my tail between my legs and say well, it just must be me, if I was a 5000 hour pilot I would have taken off much sooner with a better technique. This is missing the point again as if a 600m strip and a plane that is rated to be taking in 300m can not manage this (with all the multiples taken into account due to the temp, grass, weight, etc. etc.) how can it not be capable in 600m...??? Hmmmm, lets see... THE GRASS IS TOO LONG!

 

I should have aborted the take off when I heard the grass loudly whipping the spats and the feeling of drag from it holding the plane back - BUT this again is not the point. We are not talking here about me - this is the performance of the plane being affected by the unreasonably long grass. Why accept this obvious problem out of fear they won't let you use the strip again with my safety concern. You think I'm arrogant and ignorant, well this is arrogant and ignorant to put your desire to use the strip with your plane ahead of unsuspecting planes incoming (who may not make the right decision to not take off like I did). Remember this is not a perfect world and we all make mistakes and I feel this mistake will be made again and again until someone is killed as a result (an no we are not all perfect decision makers like some of you behind your computer screens like to think you are).

 

In reality this is a pressured decision also which (despite the training I know) due to the remoteness of the strip makes the decision biased due to the lack of other options to get out of there. If they make the correct decision not to take off when they see the shitstorm they have landed in, they will be stuck there until they convince the caretaker to bother to mow for them (not realistic). So this is why if they can simply mow the grass properly, this risk will be eliminated. Now what is wrong with eliminating some risk when it is simply a matter of cutting the grass lower (and no, it will not be a sandy bog if you cut it lower, the grass can easily be cut 50% lower and will have no issue (how do I know... I was there bending down looking at it in amazement at how long it was).

 

The reason for this post was to raise awareness that there is great caution needed at this airstrip. Instead I am being ragged on by every man and their dog for it with wise old words of advice on my decision making to take off in the first place. How the hell am I supposed to access grass length doing a fly by? You can't. If you think you can you are kidding yourself. Go fly by Orchid beach low (as I did before landing) and tell me you estimated right once you land and you feel it (it looks like short grass from the air). Calling ahead the caretaker told the pilot I flew in with that it was mowed 2 weeks before so this is safe to assume this will be okay as well. Not until we landed got out of the plane did it look long (again I admit I shouldn't have taken off, but this is not the point, the performance lost by the plane due to the grass is enough for something to be done - THIS IS THE POINT.

 

If you want to put your head in the sand despite the obvious difficulty which many will face (at this current grass length) you are an arrogant and selfish person. I don't really know why I am responding in such detail as really I am reaching out to people who are considering flying there, not the keyboard warriors hell bent on discrediting me. If you are okay with your particular plane in getting out of there. Good on you! Well done! Congratulations! But I don't care about you or your agenda. I care about the people who have no idea and would benefit from a heads up.

 

For potential Orchid Beach pilots who have never been: If you have spats and a single engine plane... Forget it unless you have assurance somehow that the grass is 'short' (hopefully by their standards at the shop there they wouldn't say the current condition would be considered short either, but who really knows). At least you know this story and as a result you might make a better decision to abort if you find yourself in the same runway condition I had to face there.

G'day Ryan.

 

Don't quit trying to warn people if you think there's a problem.

 

By the same token when people give you some feedback put aside the stuff that's a bit harsh and have a good look at what their experience may be offering.

 

Don't blame others for your mistakes. The caretaker isn't to blame for you not having the take off performance, but yes it's right to warn others about your experience and that the grass is long at the moment. Licensed airfields are suffering the same problem here in nsw at the moment with a a wet Period and grass growing too quick while tractors can't get there to slash.

 

Unlicensed airfields are not really CASA's responsibility and either way it's always the pilots responsibility to assess conditions and performance.

 

While it may seem harsh (and some comments are harsh) to have this pointed out, there's no arrogance or agenda, it's the way it is. You're the captain of that aircraft. You've had a bad day. Warn others, but take responsibility.

 

Cheers

 

 

[ryan4321]

G'day Ryan.Don't quit trying to warn people if you think there's a problem.

By the same token when people give you some feedback put aside the stuff that's a bit harsh and have a good look at what their experience may be offering.

 

Don't blame others for your mistakes. The caretaker isn't to blame for you not having the take off performance, but yes it's right to warn others about your experience and that the grass is long at the moment. Licensed airfields are suffering the same problem here in nsw at the moment with a a wet Period and grass growing too quick while tractors can't get there to slash.

 

Unlicensed airfields are not really CASA's responsibility and either way it's always the pilots responsibility to assess conditions and performance.

 

While it may seem harsh (and some comments are harsh) to have this pointed out, there's no arrogance or agenda, it's the way it is. You're the captain of that aircraft. You've had a bad day. Warn others, but take responsibility.

 

Cheers

 

Thanks Dan, I do agree with you and also Dr Zoos. At least you have some tact with what you are saying and I agree on what you have pointed out.

 

I have only contacted the female shopkeeper there and have not been able to get hold of the caretaker, but if he calls back I will be politely recommending to cut it shorter for the reasons I have mentioned above.

 

Will leave it at that and I still stand with my position in my last post but won't continue on this forum as it is just stirring the pot it seems. Pilots have this information now to do what they will with it and that's all that matters.

 

Camel and Nick and the rest of the keyboard warriors should think twice before posting the rubbish comments which help no one but entertain themselves really. Get a life if you think you are helping anyone on here because you are providing no insight.

 

 

[spacesailor]

Thanks Ryan.

 

I was on Fraser Island in my 4wd,

 

and had a great week, the fishing was sheee, weed all the time.

 

But back to my dream!.

 

"Dragging the field", please tell me what it means, and

 

Short field TAKE-off, please enlighten me, as I understand long grass will slow the aircraft quickly when landing.

 

So how do you accelerate quickly for take-off?.

 

spacesailor

 

 

[ryan4321]

Thanks Ryan.I was on Fraser Island in my 4wd,

and had a great week, the fishing was sheee, weed all the time.

 

But back to my dream!.

 

"Dragging the field", please tell me what it means, and

 

Short field TAKE-off, please enlighten me, as I understand long grass will slow the aircraft quickly when landing.

 

So how do you accelerate quickly for take-off?.

 

spacesailor

Thanks Spacesailor,

 

Dragging the field I can only assume is doing a test run down the field with no plan of taking off to access the conditions.

 

Soft Field Info here.

 

 

Aim is to get off quickly (very near stall) and use ground effect to speed up (but holding back too much will also create aerodynamic drag from AoA of the wing so really you just need to keep the wheel off to stop hitting the ground to reduce drag but get up to speed to get the mains off to start the next phase of speeding up in ground effect). Unfortunately like in my situation if you can't get the speed up to get off the ground quickly enough and there are obstacles at the end of the runway you need to abort (for which I did not do ;).

 

You also need to ensure you don't pull out of ground effect too early until you have the speed or you just drop back to earth / obstacles at the end of the field. Also to note on planes like mine, you have a strong P-Factor when you have a prop creating a lot of torque on take off and combined with pulling up early at slow speeds this pulls the plane to the left so beware on narrow fields you will need to lower the nose to straighten up again if this is pulling you too far to the left and right rudder is not correcting sufficiently enough (lesson learned early on at Kilcoy for me which is not always taught very well in schools). If you are unaware of this, it is counter-intuitive to push the nose back down to reduce this pull to the left (unless you are aware of the physics) so good to practice on a wide strip to induce this effect to then see how to correct in a controlled situation. Some planes it is not very pronounced, on the J400 (Jabiru) it is significant due to prop distance from the center of gravity (ie, long nose).

 

 

[kasper]

much clippedI don't need to put my tail between my legs and say well, it just must be me, if I was a 5000 hour pilot I would have taken off much sooner with a better technique. This is missing the point again as if a 600m strip and a plane that is rated to be taking in 300m can not manage this (with all the multiples taken into account due to the temp, grass, weight, etc. etc.) how can it not be capable in 600m...??? Hmmmm, lets see... THE GRASS IS TOO LONG!

 

...

 

the performance lost by the plane due to the grass is enough for something to be done - THIS IS THE POINT.

 

.

Ryan,

A lot of people are putting the boot in and I would prefer not to BUT (and there is a boot in this coming from a jab flyer/instructor from way back in LSA55 with the old 1600 engines flying in 35+deg at 1000' AMSL)

 

1. 300m take off per the book is on short dry grass on hard ground - that's the requirement for certification/handbooks ... if you are looking at sand with long grass you cannot rely on the 300m and you as the PIC decision maker has to decide just how much extra is required - regardless of technique its not the fault of the airfield. And given the Jab uses small diameter wheel and narrow wheel and has spats and nice low to the ground undercart legs and requires quite a lot of airspeed to get off the ground it can EASILY need 600+ m to get into the air IF AT ALL in some situations.

 

2. the last bit from you I left in the quote I agree with - even the THIS IS THE POINT bit ... something must be done but I am afraid its not to do with the grass but to do with the pilot.

 

Great that you shared your experience as it IS valuable from a learning perspective to others however what I take from it is to understand that the errors were yours and a polite note on a thread about the airfield would have been to note that the grass is quite long at the moment and to be aware of this ... then others could both learn from your near miss and be aware of the local condition that you had not appreciated sufficiently.

 

Enjoy your flying, the Jab is a lovely plane ... but its not for every field and at the margins of its performance it takes a lot of skill and judgement to operate at that margin.

 

 

[FlyingVizsla]

Mr FV was working on Fraser Island in the 1960's when the strip was built - he took the following photos. He didn't do the blade work, but was very impressed with the standard. Apologies for the dirt on the slides - I copied everything quickly with the intention of going back to significant slides and recopying with colour adjustments etc. Never happened.

 

 

 

 

[bedwa38]

I just rang and spoke to the lady at the shop, I think i've been able to pass on a postive and greatful message on behalf of the aviation community and restore the peace to some extent, so the rest of us can enjoy the strip for years to come. Apparently numb nuts here is the only person to have made a complaint in the 10 years shes been collecting the landing fees. Also, straight off the back recent rain just about any grass strip in SEQ is probably going to be a little longer than normal.

 

 

[bedwa38]

I think what we are all frustrated with is your attitude and choice of words like death trap. Also your disgusting attitude towards the caretakers, its not a certified or licenced airstrip, they are free to take care of it however they please. Once again, its up to the PIC to decide if a strip is safe for his aircraft. Even if your landing at bloody brisbane international, you still have to decide if that strip at that point in time is suitable for your aircraft.

 

And it keeps on getting better, now your saying Jabiru have built an aircraft that doesnt have sufficient rudder authority to overcome P-factor on takeoff.

 

 

[kgwilson]

Orchid Beach is an unlisted airstrip so is obviously unregistered and private. Why would CASA be interested? General rules are to obtain permission from the landowner before deciding to fly to the strip and even then it is always the pilots full responsibility for his/her actions.

 

 

[ausadvance]

The short version of dragging a strip is to do a pass of the strip before landing, lightly touching one or 2 wheels to assess the surface condition if it appears questionable. Its always important to come back around and look at your tracks aswell before landing to see how deep the grass, mud, or whatever the surface is.

 

There is ofcourse alot more to it than that, this is the very very dumbed down version. like what techniques to employ to make sure this action is done safetly. Its also harder than it seems to hold a single wheel on a runway for an extended distance only lightly. This said often multipule short taps of the mains can surfice.

 

My earlier comment referenced to a soft field take off however there are a number of techniques that can be utilised interms of a short field take off. from turning starts to reducing the aircrafts drag factor by keeping flaps in until the last minute and holding elevators neuteral on nose draggers and lifting the tail early on tail draggers. However each aircraft will react differently to all of these techniques. There is ofcourse alot more to all of it to than I cant type tonight and I reccomend having a proper chat to someone with experience to learn how to get it right. There are alot of fellas on the bush flyers down under facebook group who have alot of experience with all these techniques and are happy to give advice

 

 

[SSCBD]

The short version of dragging a strip is to do a pass of the strip before landing, lightly touching one or 2 wheels to assess the surface condition if it appears questionable. Its always important to come back around and look at your tracks aswell before landing to see how deep the grass, mud, or whatever the surface is.There is ofcourse alot more to it than that, this is the very very dumbed down version. like what techniques to employ to make sure this action is done safetly. Its also harder than it seems to hold a single wheel on a runway for an extended distance only lightly. This said often multipule short taps of the mains can surfice.

 

My earlier comment referenced to a soft field take off however there are a number of techniques that can be utilised interms of a short field take off. from turning starts to reducing the aircrafts drag factor by keeping flaps in until the last minute and holding elevators neuteral on nose draggers and lifting the tail early on tail draggers. However each aircraft will react differently to all of these techniques. There is ofcourse alot more to all of it to than I cant type tonight and I reccomend having a proper chat to someone with experience to learn how to get it right. There are alot of fellas on the bush flyers down under facebook group who have alot of experience with all these techniques and are happy to give advice

auadvance - probably not a good idea to expand on these techniques, lets say its high risk techniques with low level flying, as this should be done in person and in a training exercise with competent CFI, as many low hour pilots flying by themselves would exceed their skill set and have a incident.

 

 

[farri]

It appears to me that in post #73 Ryan4321 has acknowledged what he could have done different, on the day he flew out of Orchid Beach Airstrip.

 

If Orchid Beach Airstrip is being offered to anyone, who wants to land there, in any type of aircraft and a landing fee applies, the owner/s of the airstrip, have a duty of care to make sure that the airfield is in a satisfactory condition, for those types of aircraft, if not, it is their responsibility to declare the strip unserviceable.

 

Effort to make the strip safe,would be better spent in getting the owner/s to keep the field in a serviceable condition.

 

Frank...My Opinion Only!

 

 

[Bats]

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Frank. It is not for an airfield operator to determine what aircraft can land or take-off there - they don't have performance charts for every possible visitor, they provide information about available length, surface and any hazards, thereafter it is up to the pilot to determine suitability. It's called Pilot in COMMAND (my emphasis) for a reason. As virtually every other poster has said, our complainant has over-estimated the performance combination of skill and aircraft, has not exercised adequate airmanship and nearly brought himself undone. Mistakes happen, but where I do have an issue; he is not taking onboard what posters far more experienced than himself (or me for that matter) are saying. That attitude normally features in an ATSB report sooner than later, unfortunately.

 

 

[farri]

I'm afraid I have to disagree, Frank .

That`s ok Bats! we don`t need to agree!.... I understand fully what pilot in COMMAND means and I also understand fully what performance charts are about! I also believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (My Emphasis for a reason)!

 

where I do have an issue; he is not taking onboard what posters far more experienced than himself (or me for that matter) are saying.

It`s for Ryan4321 to decide what he chooses to take on board, I`ll simply put it this way! "The biggest fool is the fool who fools themselves"...The issue here should be about safety, not about appeasing the Airstrip owner/s, so that the airstrip can continue to be used.

 

I have 3 strips on my private property! I ran an approved flying school for 12 years from one of the strips! No one can land on these strips, without my permission! If I give permission for anyone to land, I have a duty of care to make sure the strip they land on is in a safe condition.

 

I stand on what I`ve said and I`ll also stand corrected if I`m wrong! If Orchid Beach Airstrip is a private strip, allowing any type of aircraft to use it and charging landing fees, they have a duty of care to keep the strip in the appropriate condition, regardless of the decision the pilot makes.

 

Frank.

 

 

[ryan4321]

That`s ok Bats! we don`t need to agree!.... I understand fully what pilot in COMMAND means and I also understand fully what performance charts are about! I also believe in PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY (My Emphasis for a reason)!

 

It`s for Ryan4321 to decide what he chooses to take on board, I`ll simply put it this way! "The biggest fool is the fool who fools themselves"...The issue here should be about safety, not about appeasing the Airstrip owner/s, so that the airstrip can continue to be used.

 

I have 3 strips on my private property! I ran an approved flying school for 12 years from one of the strips! No one can land on these strips, without my permission! If I give permission for anyone to land, I have a duty of care to make sure the strip they land on is in a safe condition.

 

I stand on what I`ve said and I`ll also stand corrected if I`m wrong! If Orchid Beach Airstrip is a private strip, allowing any type of aircraft to use it and charging landing fees, they have a duty of care to keep the strip in the appropriate condition, regardless of the decision the pilot makes.

 

Frank.

 

 

Well said from someone who has run their own strips. While I agree you need to access the strip before landing there. The point with Orchid at the moment is this is impossible to do this adequately as they strip owners are saying 'it was mowed 2 weeks ago' implying really it is of short grass condition. The fact is it is very long at the moment and pilots despite calling will be landing there and getting stuck once they land (if they do make the correct decision to not take off)... Is this fair to the pilot who is paying his/her landing fees? No... Like Frank said, they still need to keep it serviceable or don't offer the strip, this is the reason for posting to get something done as it shouldn't get to this point where the pilot lands and thinks... Oh shit, how am I supposed to get out of this... Not fair really. And for anyone who has a pie in the sky idea of doing low passes or brushing the wheels like Maverick to access the grass is kidding themselves. Ego's aside, think of the average pilot.

 

 

[ausadvance]

And for anyone who has a pie in the sky idea of doing low passes or brushing the wheels like Maverick to access the grass is kidding themselves.

far from kidding ourselves on this one, it is a very very standard practice. It is something practiced with every off airport landing and for those off us of whom bush flying is our hobby, making the majority of our landings off airport this is just another one of the many simple skills we practice as standard. I only suggested it as I feel it is a genuinely useful skill for everyone to have for moments like these. It is something taught as part of standard training in the US. there are various degrees of dragging a strip depending on how serious your situation is but for a simple thing such as checking the surface condition of an unknown runway a simple touch and go with a bit of pace behind you can suffice. My reference here to keeping a bit of pace behind you is in relation to if you do find the surface isnt suitable and starts to drag you down you have a bit of pace to get up again and out of there. this is certainly not going to work for everyone but for those who have big flaps like mine, keeping a notch or 2 of flap available can help that you can pull out if required to help pop you back into the air just as you would on a short field take off. also if you are flying a nose wheel aircraft it can often be advised to try and keep the nose wheel off the ground just in case. But like everything, best thing to do is go see your instructor or have a chat to someone who's had a bit of experience landing in questionable places.

 

anyway long and the short of it there is an entire sport based around operating from spots that arnt airfields where accessing surface conditions before landing is essential and in turn there are a number of well tried and proven methods to know if a surface is suitable to operate from while still in the air. Bush pilot or not this is a perfect example as to why its beneficial for all pilots to learn some of the basics. There actually is a series of formulas that I have found to be really quite accurate available to help calculate take off roll ranging from total weight, DA, surface type and even surface density (including one directly for grass length!). for those interested look up the mountain flying guide, written by an alaskan aviation veteran, its all in there.

 

 

[bedwa38]

bedwa38 - your an idiot. I didn't accuse Jabiru of having a plane without sufficient rudder to counter the p-factor. Making up stories now to suit yourself. This forum is toxic.

Well I might be an idiot but atleast I got my idiot-self, my passenger and my Jabiru in and out of orchid beach safely.

 

Ryan, if your intention of posting on here really was to make others aware of the strips current condition you could of said something a little more tactful like...

 

"Hey guys just went into Orchid Beach today. The grass is a little long from recent rain, excercise a little extra caution at the moment. The owners are probably just waiting for the strip to harden up again before they run a big heavy tractor and slasher on it."

 

 

[farri]

Come on Guys! It`s not for me to moderate here but I`d prefer read the posts, without the name calling, there`s nothing to be achieved by it, other than to get pi$$ed off with each other!..........

 

 

[Jamesinland]

Come on Guys! It`s not for me to moderate here but I`d prefer read the posts, without the name calling, there`s nothing to be achieved by it, other than to get pi$$ed off with each other!..........

I respectfully disagree.

 

As a recently certified, low hour pilot it has been a very informative discussion.

 

I have learnt a lot from reading it.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[farri]

I respectfully disagree

I respectfully point out, that I specifically said, " I `d prefer to read the posts, without the name calling!"

 

I`ve copied and pasted from the Admin post, Aug 9 2016. "Attacking other site user's opinions, posts etc is no longer tolerated here"

 

Frank.

 

 

[Jamesinland]

I respectfully point out, that I specifically said, " I `d prefer to read the posts, without the name calling!"I`ve copied and pasted from the Admin post, Aug 9 2016. "Attacking other site user's opinions, posts etc is no longer tolerated here"

 

Frank.

Sorry Frank,

 

I meant to say I learnt a lot from the discussion about posters flying skills & their personality from their uncensored posts.

 

Cheers.

 

 

[Geoff13]

Yes you can certainly learn a lot about the people.

 

 

[av8vfr]

Me, like many before have had a lot of "in your face" bad moments and nearly all pilots suck it up as training....I suppose it might be the aviation environment and it is all a learning curve even after 500hrs but.....

 

I feel every time a safety issue is raised more restrictions are placed on pilots so that less new members have the privilege of free flight.. Surely it is a better place today than 30yrs ago when I started?? Am I wrong??